Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!gegeweb.org!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.kamp.net!newsfeed.freenet.ag!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.005 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'python.': 0.02; 'programmer': 0.03; 'practice,': 0.07; 'variables': 0.07; 'things,': 0.09; 'variables.': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; '"python': 0.16; 'behave': 0.16; 'binding.': 0.16; 'from:addr:torriem': 0.16; 'from:name:michael torrie': 0.16; "he'll": 0.16; 'lisp': 0.16; 'mean,': 0.16; 'semantics': 0.16; 'sense,': 0.16; 'variables,': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'all,': 0.19; 'differ': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'memory': 0.22; 'saying': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'least': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'correct': 0.29; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'location,': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'languages': 0.32; 'up.': 0.33; 'alone': 0.33; 'programmers': 0.33; 'sense': 0.34; 'basic': 0.35; 'except': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; 'next': 0.36; "i'll": 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'wrong': 0.37; 'so,': 0.37; 'message-id:@gmail.com': 0.38; 'thank': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'explain': 0.39; 'weight': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'tips': 0.61; 'numbers': 0.61; 'simply': 0.61; 'you.': 0.62; 'name': 0.63; 'determine': 0.67; 'increase': 0.74; 'absolutely': 0.87; 'average': 0.93; 'differences': 0.93; 'hand,': 0.93 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at torriefamily.org Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 13:04:51 -0600 From: Michael Torrie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:10.0.12) Gecko/20130105 Thunderbird/10.0.12 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Closures in leu of pointers? References: <2a2072e3-4b12-4ada-872c-1240d2379928@googlegroups.com> <51CEE8E9.4070703@gmail.com> <51cf2cb7$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> In-Reply-To: <51cf2cb7$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1372532699 news.xs4all.nl 15906 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:60692 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:49447 On 06/29/2013 12:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > You are absolutely correct in principle. But in practice, there are ten > bazillion C, Pascal, COBOL, and BASIC programmers who understand the word > "variable" to mean a named memory location, for every Smalltalk or Lisp > programmer who understands a "variable" as a name binding. So it's pure > weight of numbers thing. > > The average Lisp programmer will be completely aware that "variable" can > mean various things, and take care to determine what the word means in > Python. She will immediately grok what we mean, even if she thinks that > the "no variables" part is just an affectation ("Heh, those wacky Python > dudes think they don't have variables!") but at least she'll understand > the name binding part. > > On the other hand, the average C programmer is barely aware that there > are other languages at all, let alone that some of them differ from C in > semantics as well as syntax. So by emphasising the differences ("Python > has no variables? It has name bindings?") we increase the likelihood that > he'll learn the differences in semantics as well as syntax. > > So, in a very practical sense, "Python has no variables, it has name > bindings" is completely wrong except in the sense that really matters: > Python's variables don't behave identically to C variables. Very good points. Thank you. Good tips for how to better explain things next time it comes up. I'll avoid simply saying "Python has no variables."