Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!nzpost1.xs4all.net!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.002 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.05; '*not*': 0.07; 'collections': 0.09; 'implies': 0.09; 'pointers': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'references,': 0.09; 'worse': 0.09; 'value.': 0.15; 'c++.': 0.16; 'distinct': 0.16; 'distinction': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'subject:versus': 0.16; 'value;': 0.16; 'pointer': 0.18; "aren't": 0.22; 'fit': 0.23; "python's": 0.23; "i've": 0.25; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.26; 'program,': 0.29; 'normally': 0.30; "can't": 0.32; 'accessible': 0.33; 'reference,': 0.33; 'running': 0.34; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'received:org': 0.37; 'difference': 0.38; 'names': 0.38; 'whatever': 0.39; 'does': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.40; 'skip:u 10': 0.61; 'different': 0.63; 'believe': 0.66; 'direct': 0.68; 'skip:\xe2 10': 0.70; 'subjectcharset:utf-8': 0.71; '8bit%:46': 0.76; '_o__)': 0.84; 'received:125': 0.84; 'subject::': 0.85 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Ben Finney Subject: Terminology: =?utf-8?B?4oCccmVmZXJlbmNl4oCd?= versus =?utf-8?B?4oCccG9pbnRlcuKAnQ==?= (was: Python handles globals badly.) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 14:27:38 +1000 References: <14afe27e-0bd5-410f-8e64-0f31d496ebf2@googlegroups.com> <55F36B4C.9020007@gmail.com> <1442016698.95299.381478313.2487CA0E@webmail.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: jigong.madmonks.org X-Public-Key-ID: 0xAC128405 X-Public-Key-Fingerprint: 517C F14B B2F3 98B0 CB35 4855 B8B2 4C06 AC12 8405 X-Public-Key-URL: http://www.benfinney.id.au/contact/bfinney-pubkey.asc X-Post-From: Ben Finney User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:TXrGPuAblNYBhoOPuWEmIMrasTE= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+ Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1442032080 news.xs4all.nl 23764 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:36345 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:96393 Random832 writes: > Honestly, whether you want to call the thing a pointer or a reference, > you have to call it *something*, and I think "reference" is a worse > fit based on its connotations from C++. Whatever you call it, it's an > arrow on a diagram. With the significant difference that “pointer” implies that it has its own value accessible directly by the running program, such as a pointer in C. That's different from a “reference”, which to my understanding implies the running program does *not* normally have direct access to it as a distinct value. The only way you can use a reference is to get at the object to which it refers. That's the distinction I've been reying on for years, anyway: Python's names are references, collections are collections of references, etc. They aren't pointers because you can't get them as a distinct value; you can only use them to refer to the object at the other end. -- \ “If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we | `\ despise, we don't believe in it at all.” —Noam Chomsky, | _o__) 1992-11-25 | Ben Finney