Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.redatomik.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path: <rosuav@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: python-list@python.org
Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status: OK 0.016
X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.97; '*S*': 0.00; 'programmer': 0.03; 'interpreter': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'subject:skip:c 10': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'button?': 0.16; 'executed,': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject:between': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'code.': 0.18; 'work,': 0.20; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'print': 0.22; '(or': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'equivalent': 0.26; 'primary': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'related': 0.29; 'statement': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'breaking': 0.31; 'prints': 0.31; 'subject:that': 0.31; 'trivial': 0.31; 'option': 0.32; 'running': 0.33; 'beginning': 0.33; "i'd": 0.34; 'info': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'etc': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'useful': 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'application': 0.37; 'pm,': 0.38; '12,': 0.39; 'extremely': 0.39; 'functional': 0.39; 'how': 0.40; 'helps': 0.61; "you'll": 0.62; 'real': 0.63; 'click': 0.77; '2015': 0.84; 'subject: *': 0.84; 'viable': 0.84; 'good,': 0.91; 'subject:Good': 0.91; 'to:none': 0.92
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=MehcSr8G4feBRsuw1n2mOeGTAu6n0V9wtCn65hxfy4c=; b=HWwmVKAPUW/fLS+q+hShmPyVdbdW83GkfRnl4kOcZFVKII96s4RZWcCcrCesE00FGa ERrS8mzsDw4NFCIqjS3VmGjG3p5FgN9qeoyLFbMEgWDuyYEnkUlBIcJ1yLIPkr3as6DV tJnJ254QCMFTpu4fiOErig4DnS4PWugf5biZpkdZObf3mtZcHKq3tSDQUdg7srDCIff8 EDz3icgr8SfeJ4illTzLgzwHfmUEw5U7itZCwKd8tod7mZDdX0DewakU8phvvcUy331S LJOmi1a/tTUYU2WdHTo+Y2SI9jJbWRIah+O+G+AAgHZLaG4tL95whgH1BaMT3teKzYAz Bprw==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.42.43.199 with SMTP id y7mr1512090ice.12.1431413833057; Mon, 11 May 2015 23:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <60c01c07-aef9-4232-92cd-22e6c017fc9c@googlegroups.com>
References: <02dba7aa-8466-4937-a8d8-82ffd03e5568@googlegroups.com> <87wq0gyvyr.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.333.1431308306.12865.python-list@python.org> <ed1b5d2c-7d29-4102-b310-ee544cf033a3@googlegroups.com> <55515f9d$0$12987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.386.1431407062.12865.python-list@python.org> <b68efd25-017a-4bd4-830b-54cc79ec853b@googlegroups.com> <60c01c07-aef9-4232-92cd-22e6c017fc9c@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:57:12 +1000
Subject: Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?
From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Cc: "python-list@python.org" <python-list@python.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post: <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help: <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <mailman.387.1431413836.12865.python-list@python.org>
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace: 1431413836 news.xs4all.nl 2930 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:36289
X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:90436

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> And related to that (and one reason a pure functional language is good for
> pedagogy): NO PRINT statement
> It may seem trivial but beginning students have a real hard writing clean
> structured code.  Tabooing prints helps get there faster
> And working in the interpreter makes a print-taboo a viable option

I firmly disagree. Interactive work is well and good, but print (or
equivalent - console.log, log.info, werror, etc etc) is extremely
useful for learning about a larger application. You can play with
things at the terminal, but how can you find out exactly what happens
when you click this button? Ensuring that your application can be
imported, executed, and manipulated interactively, all without
breaking its primary purpose, is a LOT of extra work, and not
something I'd recommend to beginners. So learn about print, learn
about how to get info out of a running program. You'll be the better
programmer for it.

ChrisA