Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!1.eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.021 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.96; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'layers': 0.07; 'abstraction': 0.09; 'logic': 0.09; 'so?': 0.09; 'subject:skip:c 10': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; "computer's": 0.16; 'damage.': 0.16; 'from:addr:torriem': 0.16; 'from:name:michael torrie': 0.16; 'harvard,': 0.16; 'lisp': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject:between': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'year,': 0.18; 'header:User- Agent:1': 0.23; 'certainly': 0.24; 'fine': 0.24; 'java': 0.24; 'appreciated': 0.26; 'class.': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'am,': 0.29; 'bad.': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'subject:that': 0.31; 'class': 0.32; 'there.': 0.32; 'another': 0.32; 'programmers': 0.33; "can't": 0.35; 'functions.': 0.36; 'surely': 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'level': 0.37; 'starting': 0.37; 'step': 0.37; 'architecture': 0.38; 'message- id:@gmail.com': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'fact': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'von': 0.38; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'exposure': 0.60; 'new': 0.61; 'first': 0.61; 'more': 0.64; 'charset:windows-1252': 0.65; 'caused': 0.69; 'unusual': 0.74; 'outsourcing': 0.81; '2015': 0.84; 'subject: *': 0.84; 'yale': 0.84; 'subject:Good': 0.91; 'email addr:aol.com': 0.96 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at torriefamily.org Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 23:04:10 -0600 From: Michael Torrie User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea? References: <02dba7aa-8466-4937-a8d8-82ffd03e5568@googlegroups.com> <87wq0gyvyr.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <55515f9d$0$12987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> In-Reply-To: <55515f9d$0$12987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+ Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1431407062 news.xs4all.nl 2838 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:45527 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:90432 On 05/11/2015 08:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, 12 May 2015 05:01 am, beliavsky@aol.com wrote: > >> Yale has taken the unusual step of outsourcing its introductory CS class >> to Harvard, which uses C as the main language in its CS50 class. > > And another generation of new programmers will be irreversibly damaged by > exposure to C... How so? Surely starting at first principles of a computer's operation can't be all that bad. In my program at uni, one of the very first level courses was actually to build a simulated CPU from logic gates and then program it in assembly. C is just a step up from there. I should note they also had Java in the first year, and that certainly caused irreversible damage. The wonderfulness of LISP and Python can be appreciated just fine with a solid background in how Von Neumann architecture actually functions. In fact I appreciate the layers of abstraction even more after I understand them.