Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.138 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.73; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; '------------': 0.09; "people's": 0.09; 'subject:language': 0.09; 'algorithmic': 0.16; 'benjamin': 0.16; 'mind-set.': 0.16; 'received:mac.com': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'weekends': 0.16; 'student': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'bit': 0.19; 'received:10.0.1': 0.19; 'programming': 0.22; 'cc:addr:gmail.com': 0.22; 'cc:2**1': 0.23; 'text,': 0.24; 'java': 0.24; 'math': 0.24; 'subject:/': 0.26; 'am,': 0.29; 'points': 0.29; 'quickly': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'dec': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'url:mailman': 0.30; 'view.': 0.31; 'anyone': 0.31; 'open': 0.33; 'url:python': 0.33; 'monday,': 0.33; 'programmers': 0.33; 'there,': 0.34; 'problem': 0.35; 'agree': 0.35; 'classes': 0.35; 'december': 0.35; 'offered': 0.35; 'etc': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'ibm': 0.36; 'url:listinfo': 0.36; 'charset:us-ascii': 0.36; 'received:10.0': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'experience,': 0.37; 'received:10': 0.37; 'received:17': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'that,': 0.38; 'expect': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'either': 0.39; 'url:mail': 0.40; 'skip:u 10': 0.60; 'details.': 0.61; 'course': 0.61; 'back': 0.62; 'national': 0.62; 'times': 0.62; 'personal': 0.63; 'our': 0.64; 'details': 0.65; 'series': 0.66; 'here': 0.66; 'college': 0.70; 'truth': 0.81; 'adopting': 0.84; 'end.': 0.84; 'header:In-reply- to:1': 0.84; 'oscar': 0.84; 'pain': 0.84; 'that!)': 0.84; '2013,': 0.91; 'joel': 0.91; 'rusi': 0.91; '2013': 0.98 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.72,1.0.14,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-12-09_02:2013-12-09,2013-12-09,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1308280000 definitions=main-1312090112 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Subject: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language From: William Ray Wing In-reply-to: <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:55:41 -0500 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable References: <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com> To: Python X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: rusi , William Ray Wing X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1386615358 news.xs4all.nl 2974 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:47265 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:61403 On Dec 9, 2013, at 11:57 AM, rusi wrote: > On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote: >> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the >> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the >> pain makes them better programmers in the end. >=20 > Yeah this will get some people's back up -- Atrocious! Preposterous! = etc >=20 > Change the word 'pain' to 'taxing' 'hard' 'challenge' etc and there is = much > truth in it. Here is Joel Spolsky on why Java is a poor language for > this reason: = http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html > --=20 > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list I'm not sure I agree with either of these points of view. Based on my = own personal experience, there is an "Ah HA!" moment[*] when a student = understands what it means to decompose a problem into a series of = algorithmic steps - after that, the details of the particular = programming language are just that, details. Some students get that quickly and intuitively and some never get there, = but that bit of fundamental understanding doesn't require either pain or = (necessarily) hard work - it just requires adopting a way of approaching = and thinking about problems, a mind-set. -Bill ------------ * For me it came during a no-credit, no-cost, lunch-time course one of = my college math teachers offered for anyone who was interested. The = year was 1963, we used McCracken's FORTRAN book as our text, and tested = our programs over open weekends at Argonne National Lab, where they had = an IBM 1620 they opened to classes like ours a couple of times a month.=