Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!gegeweb.org!de-l.enfer-du-nord.net!feeder1.enfer-du-nord.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path: <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: python-list@python.org
Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status: OK 0.045
X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.91; '*S*': 0.00; 'nested': 0.07; 'suddenly': 0.07; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; "wouldn't": 0.14; 'callable': 0.16; 'erlang,': 0.16; 'examples?': 0.16; 'fine.': 0.16; 'implies': 0.16; 'lexical': 0.16; 'namespace?': 0.16; 'really?': 0.16; 'scopes': 0.16; 'to:addr:pearwood.info': 0.16; 'to:addr:steve+comp.lang.python': 0.16; "to:name:steven d'aprano": 0.16; 'typeerror:': 0.16; ':-)': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'do.': 0.18; 'variable': 0.18; 'meant': 0.20; 'seems': 0.21; '>>>': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'certainly': 0.24; '(or': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'cc:no real name:2**0': 0.24; 'skip:" 20': 0.27; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'globally': 0.31; 'languages': 0.32; 'option': 0.32; '(i.e.': 0.33; 'trouble': 0.34; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'consistent': 0.36; 'starting': 0.37; 'stopped': 0.38; 'skip:[ 10': 0.38; 'how': 0.40; "you're": 0.61; 'back': 0.62; 'provide': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'levels': 0.65; 'talking': 0.65; 'caused': 0.69; 'apart': 0.72; 'designers': 0.74; 'hey,': 0.75; 'back?': 0.84; 'circles': 0.84; 'horrible': 0.84; 'single,': 0.84; 'unique.': 0.84; 'absolutely': 0.87; 'defeat': 0.91; 'subject:Don': 0.91; 'relating': 0.93; 'washington': 0.93
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ODfpsxrDC443YzH1mAhIWdAG4Tj7t3QndwOQUGnpMXY=; b=dr7zNSRebgZg/WXhbt2sOZYXlj4Q2uv8ni6ZIDt4hTUXa+fHimI7OXpnJN+2d4JIGh cI+fhSTrnWx5BQltk1lCuiDY3MuNzKmpwF5kwLHVqSJqrfZbdBDJM02zj3kvY0q3oqto Zd8ZrlGQKy0KxizEm7QEPelUpqBVCJGNMo30by5DC94K8jT7RLzXKN9RqT6lkq2P8TOK zHbpr4UWBoCI9ZimfsRlZuZzMGx+raUh3B86DqlOmieXql00afSiEgr+BG3smtXjEJaT B8/DEcr9RdkzAkjr2oXq187xQ2PJxxX9za7W5awMFUd7bJCOsBw4+GVAMVulZ6JIiGII +QpA==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.220.162.70 with SMTP id u6mr10585687vcx.11.1371081888382; Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:04:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <51b69332$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3001.1370909708.3114.python-list@python.org> <dffd70ad-4e9a-45cd-914b-7f1388ded5a2@a9g2000pbq.googlegroups.com> <51b69332$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 17:04:48 -0700
Subject: Re: "Don't rebind built-in names*" - it confuses readers
From: Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To: "Steven D'Aprano" <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Cc: python-list@python.org
X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post: <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help: <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <mailman.3143.1371081895.3114.python-list@python.org>
Lines: 35
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace: 1371081895 news.xs4all.nl 15970 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:53743
X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:47863

>> This has caused more trouble than it has solved.
>
> I take it you have never programmed in a programming language with a
> single, flat, global namespace? :-)

Hey, the purpose a programming language (i.e. a language which has a
consistent lexical specification), is to provide some modicum of
structure.  Yes, that implies that you're implicitly following a
language designers tacit philosophy (their "ObjectArchitecture") for
relating data to computers, but that's fine.  People always have the
option of going back to assembly and starting over.

> Apart from Erlang, got any other examples? Because it seems to me that in
> languages with nested scopes or namespaces, shadowing higher levels is
> exactly the right thing to do.

Really?

>>> int="five"
>>> [int(i) for i in ["1","2","3"]]
TypeError:  str is not callable

Now how are you going to get the original int type back?

> Certainly it would be a PITA, and defeat
> the purpose of having nested scopes, if inner names had to be globally
> unique. Wouldn't it be absolutely horrible if adding a global variable
> "foo"[1] suddenly meant that all your functions that used "foo" as a
> local variable stopped working?

Not necessarily, but this is what I'm talking about in defining a
ObjectArchitecture (or in some circles a "type system").
-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington