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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:47:25 -0700
From: Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com>
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To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Negative array indicies and slice()
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On 10/30/2012 01:17 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> By the way Andrew, the timestamps on your emails appear to be off, or
> possibly the time zone. Your posts are allegedly arriving before the
> posts you reply to, at least according to my news client.
:D -- yes, I know about that problem.  Every time I reboot it shows up 
again...
It's a distribution issue, my hardware clock is in local time -- but 
when the clock is read by different scripts in my distribution, some 
refuse to accept that the system clock is not UTC.
I'll be upgrading in a few weeks -- so I'm just limping along until 
then. My apology.

> Then I look forward to seeing your profiling results that show that the
> overhead of subclassing list is the bottleneck in your application.
>
> Until then, you are making the classic blunder of the premature optimizer:
>
> "More computing sins are committed in the name of efficiency (without
> necessarily achieving it) than for any other single reason — including
> blind stupidity." — W.A. Wulf

I'm sure that's true.  Optimization, though, is a very general word.

On a highway in my neighborhood -- the government keeps trying to put 
more safety restrictions on it, because it statistically registers as 
the "highest accident rate road" in the *entire* region.

Naturally, the government assumes that people in my neighborhood are 
worse drivers than usual and need to be policed more -- but the truth 
is, that highway is the *ONLY* access road in the region for dozens of 
miles in any direction for a densely populated area, so if there is 
going to be an accident it will happen there; the extra safety 
precautions are not necessary when the accident rate is looked at from a 
per-capita perspective of those driving the highway.

I haven't made *the* blunder of the premature optimizer because I 
haven't implemented anything yet.  Premature optimizers don't bother to 
hold public conversation and take correction.
OTOH:  people who don't ever optimize out of fear, pay an increasing 
bloat price with time.

> I am not impressed by performance arguments when you have (apparently)
> neither identified the bottlenecks in your code, nor even measured the
> performance.
Someone else already did a benchmark between a discrete loop and a slice 
operation.
The difference in speed was an order of magnitude different.
I bench-marked a map operation, which was *much* better -- but also 
still very slow in comparison.

Let's not confound an issue here -- I am going to implement the python 
interpreter; and am not bound by optimization considerations of the 
present python interpreter -- There are things I can do which as a 
python programmer -- you can't.  I have no choice but to re-implement 
and optimize the interpreter -- the question is merely how to go about it.

>   You are essentially *guessing* where the bottlenecks are,
> and *hoping* that some suggested change will be an optimization rather
> than a pessimization.
>
> Of course I may be wrong, and you have profiled your code and determined
> that the overhead of inheritance is a problem. If so, that's a different
> ball game. But your posts so far suggest to me that you're trying to
> predict performance optimizations rather than measure them.
Not really; Inheritance itself and it's timing aren't my main concern.  
Even if the time was *0* that wouldn't change my mind.

There are man hours in debugging time caused by not being able to wrap 
around in a slice. (I am not ignoring the contrary man hours of an API 
change's bugs).

Human psychology is important; and it's a double edged sword.

I would refer you to a book written by Steve Maguire, Writing Solid 
Code; Chapter 5; Candy machine interfaces.

He uses the "C" function "realloc()" as an excellent example of a bad 
API; but still comments on one need that it *does* fulfill -- "I've 
found it better to have one function that both shrinks and expands 
blocks so that I don't have to write *ifs* constructs every time I need 
to resize memory.  True, I give up some extra argument checking, but 
this is offset by the *ifs* that I no longer need to write (*and 
possibly mess up*).

* Extra steps that a programmer must take to achieve a task are places 
where bugs get introduced.

* API's which must be debugged to see what particular operation it is 
performing rather than knowing what that operation is from looking at 
the un-compiled code are places where bugs get introduced.

These two points are not friendly with each other -- they are in fact, 
generally in conflict.
>> Right, which means that people developing the libraries made
>> contradictory assumptions.
> Not necessarily. Not only can monkey-patches conflict, but they can
> combine in bad ways. It isn't just that Fred assumes X and Barney assumes
> not-X, but also that Fred assumes X and Barney assumes Y and *nobody*
> imagined that there was some interaction between X and Y.
They *STILL* made contradictory assumptions; each of them assumed the 
interaction mechanism would not be applied in a certain way -- and then 
used it based on that assumption.
> Not carefully enough. He notes that he was using a provocative title and
> that he doesn't actually think that Ruby is being destroyed. But the
> actual harm he describes is real, e.g. bugs that take months to track
> down.
Yes.  I read that *carefully*.
BTW:  I'm not planning on monkey patching -- I did say your comments 
were well taken.

>> What you are talking about is namespace preservation;
> I haven't mentioned namespaces. Nothing I have said has anything to do
> with namespaces.
keywords are a namespace.  xrange is a keyword, etc.
You don't want pre-defined API method name to have its operation 
altered; you want the original names preserved. Overloading pollutes 
namespaces, etc.

> If you want to write a language that is not Python, go right ahead.

That's not the only possibility.  It will still be called Python and for 
good reason.

>
>> If someone had a clear explanation of the disadvantages of allowing an
>> iterator, or a tuple -- in place of a slice() -- I would have no qualms
>> dropping the subject.  However, I am not finding that yet.  I am finding
>> very small optimization issues...
> Python has certain public interfaces. If your language does not support
> those public interfaces, then it might be an awesome language, but it is
> not Python.
I didn't say I wouldn't support it.  How do you mean this?

> Iterators cannot replace slices, because once you have looked up an
> iterator value, that value is gone, never to be seen again.
Yes they can replace slices, but not always.
For example;  Lets say an iterator were allowed to replace a slice;

then a[ 1:3 ] would still be a slice, but a[ xrange(1,3) ] would not.
The second piece of code does not deny that slices exist, it just allows 
an iterator to be passed to __getitems__.

> Tuples cannot replace slices, because tuples do not have start, step and
> stop attributes;
I refer you to my comments to IAN.

>
> And none of them have a public indices method.
Hmm.. a new point.  Do you have a link?
>
>> The actual *need* for a slice() object still hasn't been demonsrated.
> Hell, the actual *need* for slicing hasn't been demonstrated! Or Python!
> Since C doesn't have slicing, nobody needs it! Am I right?
I asked about the need for slices() not the others, in the OP.
Thanks for your comments on the names, etc.  That's helpful -- and I 
hope I haven't driven your blood pressure up too much unintentionally.

> Needed or not, that is what Python has, so if your language doesn't have
> it, it isn't Python.
Fine.  But if mine still has these, but only as an *optional* wrapper 
function -- it still *RUNS* all python progams.

> Sure. And a tuple can also be () or (1, "x", [], None, None, None, None).
> Now your list.__getitem__ code has to deal with those instead.
>
And the present __getitem__ can be passed a perverted slice() as IAN 
demonstrated and the bug-list examined as "goofy".  These strange things 
simply cause an exception.

> So you want to get rid of slices because you want to save every byte 
> of memory you can, and your way to do that is to introduce a new, 
> *heavier* type that does more than slices? Oh man, that's funny.

I'm not Introducing a new type !
Besides; tuples will likely be lighter on memory in my target and I 
don't recall saying a tuple does more than slices.  I did say that 
*iterators* were more *flexible* -- is that what you are thinking of?