Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.redatomik.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.012 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'attribute': 0.07; 'compiler': 0.07; 'debug': 0.07; 'tries': 0.07; 'differently.': 0.09; 'immutable': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'suggest': 0.14; "wouldn't": 0.14; "(it's": 0.16; 'binding,': 0.16; 'bugs.': 0.16; 'complicated,': 0.16; 'definition;': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'mutable': 0.16; 'optional': 0.16; 'result;': 0.16; 'subject:parameters': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'simpler': 0.24; 'looks': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'sort': 0.25; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'point': 0.28; 'function': 0.29; 'rest': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; 'easier': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'idea,': 0.31; 'int,': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'cases': 0.33; 'guess': 0.33; 'could': 0.34; 'common': 0.35; 'late': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'introducing': 0.36; 'method': 0.36; 'wrong': 0.37; 'list,': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'extremely': 0.39; 'enough': 0.39; 'how': 0.40; 'expression': 0.60; 'break': 0.61; 'simple': 0.61; 'first': 0.61; 'such': 0.63; 'chance': 0.65; 'anything.': 0.68; 'default': 0.69; 'fact,': 0.69; 'therefore': 0.72; 'evaluate': 0.72; 'obvious': 0.74; '2015': 0.84; "it'd": 0.84; 'optimized,': 0.84; 'technically': 0.84; 'absolutely': 0.87; 'to:none': 0.92 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=7OyGbfJcZ3/xOuVmSKYVyI5hcoh6eorRbH3/pdOPEcw=; b=rhmmHxdGu+W41NDI/kfJtC1VovCaUpkx4NqSsucRcmaGZ0eeG5E6BlUVy+Ll5ElCOV 8gr5L6D0QZAmL9oO79IMIxKR2+q0WepcxKWmixy2kOx7CFfR2Nm3TCvGAMYp6nzwvXDO v7YS8gt4tf4QAm/U+ViJ24+3V4WUbMb8Frjsx1MgTzaGtX9Dnw/RyILk0gJHaoE/LnVN TQI4NRZy+vRnj7+b2/HPMIY+iaAneaW8h+DrMhGI2R4aJfD3feOyQOwFHP0Qpf7XhJXQ IEOuhVXm0PoBDcQ57423jBEgygpNhIV9I6wG7f8YXz2Om+B0zxno6avyxfdoR+MzHouA 21Uw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.39.1 with SMTP id tk1mr5156626icb.26.1431228780126; Sat, 09 May 2015 20:33:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <554ec664$0$13001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <72lu1cxvmg.ln2@news.c0t0d0s0.de> <554cd511$0$12979$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <554ec664$0$13001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 13:33:00 +1000 Subject: Re: functions, optional parameters From: Chris Angelico Cc: "python-list@python.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+ Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1431228783 news.xs4all.nl 2923 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:46190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:90255 On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > This is the point where some people try to suggest some sort of complicated, > fragile, DWIM heuristic where the compiler tries to guess whether the user > actually wants the default to use early or late binding, based on what the > expression looks like. "0 is an immutable int, use early binding; [] is a > mutable list, use late binding." sort of thing. Such a thing might work > well for the obvious cases, but it would be a bugger to debug and > work-around for the non-obvious cases when it guesses wrong -- and it will. What you could have is "late-binding semantics, optional early binding as an optimization but only in cases where the result is indistinguishable". That would allow common cases (int/bool/str/None literals) to be optimized, since there's absolutely no way for them to evaluate differently. I personally don't think it'd be that good an idea, but it's a simple enough rule that it wouldn't break anything. As far as anyone's code is concerned, the rule is "late binding, always". In fact, that would be the language definition; the rest is an optimization. (It's like how "x.y()" technically first looks up attribute "y" on object x, then calls the result; but it's perfectly reasonable for a Python implementation to notice this extremely common case and do an "optimized method call" that doesn't actually create a function object.) The simpler the rule, the easier to grok, and therefore the less chance of introducing bugs. ChrisA