Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.glorb.com!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'syntax': 0.03; '(even': 0.05; 'say,': 0.05; 'things.': 0.05; '21,': 0.07; 'plenty': 0.07; 'problem:': 0.07; 'problem?': 0.07; 'url:blog': 0.09; 'python': 0.09; '"a"': 0.09; 'beginners': 0.09; 'other,': 0.09; 'plug': 0.09; 'reference:': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.10; 'student': 0.15; '(like': 0.15; 'tutorials': 0.15; '"i': 0.16; "(can't": 0.16; '11:32': 0.16; '8bit%:1': 0.16; 'anymore': 0.16; 'cheers!': 0.16; 'grasp': 0.16; 'herman': 0.16; 'janssen': 0.16; 'michael,': 0.16; 'one)': 0.16; 'outcomes': 0.16; 'plus,': 0.16; 'programmer,': 0.16; 'stuff.': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject: ~': 0.16; 'subject:Guide': 0.16; 'subject:Programming': 0.16; 'talents': 0.16; 'url:luc': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.17; 'thu,': 0.17; 'usability': 0.17; 'url:edu': 0.18; 'sender:addr:gmail.com': 0.18; '(or': 0.18; 'feb': 0.19; 'mostly': 0.20; 'trying': 0.21; 'bit': 0.21; 'are.': 0.22; 'sorry,': 0.22; 'url:amazon': 0.22; 'cc:2**0': 0.23; 'programming': 0.23; "i've": 0.23; 'seems': 0.23; 'cc:no real name:2**0': 0.24; 'idea': 0.24; 'second': 0.24; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.25; 'wrote': 0.26; 'url:wiki': 0.26; '[1]': 0.27; 'am,': 0.27; 'coding': 0.27; 'wonder': 0.27; 'newer': 0.27; 'structures': 0.27; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.27; "doesn't": 0.28; 'there.': 0.28; 'correct': 0.28; 'actual': 0.28; 'about.': 0.29; 'factor': 0.29; 'fast.': 0.29; 'helpful.': 0.29; 'questions.': 0.29; 'strings,': 0.29; 'websites.': 0.29; 'url:mailman': 0.29; 'character': 0.29; 'objects': 0.29; '8bit%:5': 0.29; 'skip:& 10': 0.29; 'probably': 0.29; "i'm": 0.29; 'maybe': 0.29; 'basic': 0.30; 'function': 0.30; 'feedback': 0.30; 'helpful': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; '(and': 0.32; 'url:python': 0.32; 'good.': 0.32; 'room': 0.32; 'sources': 0.32; 'could': 0.32; 'print': 0.32; 'url:listinfo': 0.32; 'material': 0.33; 'web,': 0.33; 'ones,': 0.33; 'programming,': 0.33; 'rid': 0.33; 'skip:h 40': 0.33; 'problem': 0.33; 'everyone': 0.33; 'received:google.com': 0.34; 'wrong': 0.34; 'done': 0.34; 'liked': 0.66; 'subject: & ': 0.67; 'to:no real name:2**2': 0.69; 'quality': 0.69; 'touch': 0.69; 'subject:The': 0.71; 'programs,': 0.71; 'wave': 0.71; 'future,': 0.72; 'url:2011': 0.72; 'special': 0.73; 'goal': 0.74; 'friend': 0.81; 'low': 0.83; '"learn': 0.84; '$25': 0.84; '*learn': 0.84; '1600': 0.84; '2013': 0.84; 'books.': 0.84; 'bored': 0.84; 'ceiling': 0.84; 'course"': 0.84; "everything's": 0.84; 'first-hand': 0.84; 'maybe,': 0.84; 'subject:UPDATE': 0.84; 'url:book': 0.84; 'url:course': 0.84; 'url:st': 0.84; 'gladly': 0.91; 'resolved.': 0.91; 'stretch': 0.91; 'response,': 0.93; 'ultimate': 0.93; 'rank': 0.95; 'serious': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kExuRV92L8cmYQZzQmD1x2cGWObEMjeYPY2L4A2p1Bg=; b=JuQgUisYYxZccZ2Rtg7e9+xdXsKSa2QKsf6u9bNpOquQ2CSPnIP04we2ftVuL495F6 q/MAc+j96Z1v5EYhWn07YM11lkOSNMmCUpmqbi6sXMGM4FQ+R4fH5dzACrxfiqVw7eND lpq+g1DAyC0qBRPQ3eq+ez22MtS4OkQHahZ+xMjZxEJwKwZ5GcZloX6Jhp40GLOwdznJ vNWJMx67wfGqdnB8Muy7zPYRArxRAUkmQjlhCo+E7fX8U4THuwiRsTm4fW+I3PDTyDfa v3c/dO5clYsR2bbkpOei5LpvPhSI5BZLbSsC9F7V0zdzJxBPhP8RsZPR1uGeEiXcXqky iuTw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.90.66 with SMTP id bu2mr3260218veb.29.1362454846993; Mon, 04 Mar 2013 19:40:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: designingparadise100@gmail.com Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 21:40:46 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 11LYg6bfbMe4CqRsSqq3pLB6BuI Subject: ** UPDATE ** ~ The Perfect Guide To Actionable Programming & Thank You ~ From: Claira To: hermanmu@gmail.com, dreamingforward@gmail.com, phihag@phihag.de Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cc3862d7d6004d7253d1b Cc: python-list@python.org X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 377 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1362454850 news.xs4all.nl 6909 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:43358 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:40498 --089e013cc3862d7d6004d7253d1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the few answers, though those few were very Helpful. The problem was that some people (even after 4 or more years of university), especially including almost all beginners, do not know how to start building something that does something helpful for soceity and everyone around them -- and this is yet to be resolved. I read a whole bunch of reviews of the learning resources I linked to last month. Here's one I Love -- "There should be exaggerated claims of ultimate learning outcomes without evidence"[1] My response, attached with the answers below for reference: When wonderful talents do things like kickstarter.com/projects/1369857650/real-python-for-web-development-featuri= ng-web2py-- I wonder about what is even more significant -- "Is it effective? Does it solve the problem?" When I (and others far newer than me) have a serious problem like this, you know, we care very much for accurate and reliable data. When people say "Learn Python the Hardway is probably the best resource you listed.. [and] you *will *learn the material.." when clearly it doesn't meet standards: "I have seeen plenty of stackoverflow and student questions about it. In short, it's horrible." I start to wonder about the reliability of their judgement, and how partial they really are. Even if "A friend of mine wrote the course" is not factor we care about. Maybe hardway was the highest Quality resource out of those (I personally liked the MIT videos from what I've seen). So maybe, but best in the room with a low ceiling isn't very good. I try really really hard not to touch objects of low quality (<4.9 stars) http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/0596158106 I've been trying to learn programming for 8 years, so I'm a great canidiate. So Michael, I would gladly give you any feedback on the usability of your product anytime you ask :) [1] http://blog.oreillyschool.com/2011/12/my-thoughts-on-codecademy.html On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Philipp Hagemeister wrote: > > http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ > I have never used that myself, but I have seeen plenty of stackoverflow > and student questions about it. In short, it's horrible. > > The book mostly consists of basic Python programs, and beginners often > fail to grasp even the most basic structures demonstrated, mainly > because they're not explained. The book has some of the easy-to-approach > informality of, say, the Head First ones, but fails to contain the the > actual explanations for it. > > (And I have no idea why one would start with Python 2.x, given that > everything's strange in there - instead of relying on the intuitive > grasp that both "a" and "=E4" are single character strings, and that prin= t > is a function like any other, they have to work with a lot of magic and > hand-waving) > > - Philipp > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Mark Janssen wrote: > Sorry, I gave you the wrong book (a different Lutz book). The correct > title is _Programming Python_, by Mark Lutz. It's like 1600 pages and > is application focused. > > Cheers! > mark > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Michael Herman wrote: > Hi Claira, > > I understand how hard it can be. Learn Python the Hardway is probably the > best resource you listed. It's a bit unorganized, but you *will *learn > the material if you go through all the exercises and homework problems. > > That said, the author does dive into some areas that are not really > necessary for beginners, which is a problem with most Python books. Check > out http://www.realpython.com/. It's one of the best resources out there. > A friend of mine wrote the course. Right now, I am in the process of > writing a companion course called Real Python for the Web, where you lear= n > how to develop websites. So, you would start with the first course to lea= rn > the syntax and then you could move onto the second course to learn web > development. > > The Kickstarter is live for the second course - http://kck.st/VQj8hq > > There is a special right now where you can get both courses for $25 on th= e > Kickstarter. Plus, once I hit $15k, which should be in the next few days,= I > will hit a stretch goal for making video tutorials for the first course. > > Anyway, sorry to plug my product - but I feel your pain, which is why Rea= l > Python was developed in the first place: Less syntax and theory, more > coding and learning. Learning by doing. > > Let me know if you have any more questions. > > Best, > > Michael > > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Claira wrote: > >> The problem: I've done reading (like on quora), and it seems lots of >> beginners (and I know first-hand for me), and even for those that have d= one >> 4 years at university -- that they say they don't know how to build >> something after all the theory and stuff. Even though I'm not going to b= e a >> programmer, in the future, there may be something that would need >> programming, so learning what's needed is a good thing. For example, I >> thought you could just wave leapmotion.com and it just works, but it's >> still 2013. On quora, they say that you need to code for it to actually = do >> things. Could someone who is good at it rank these sources (or provide a >> good one) on how well they solve the problem? >> >> http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ >> http://girldevelopit.com/materials >> https://developers.google.com/edu/python/ >> https://www.edx.org/courses/BerkeleyX/CS169.1x/ >> https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101 >> https://www.udacity.com/course/cs262 >> http://anh.cs.luc.edu/python/hands-on/3.1/handsonHtml/ >> https://www.khanacademy.org/cs/tutorials/programming-basics >> http://www.codecademy.com/tracks/python >> http://www.learnpython.org >> >> I got rid of a whole bunch that I thought were really really bad like >> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Non-Programmer%27s_Tutorial_for_Python_2.6 >> >> Really bored really fast. I'm not sure what helpful things I'll like to >> build anymore =3D'( >> >> I'm not subscribed to the list anymore (can't keep up with it, and don't >> understand anything). Please cc me :) >> >> -- >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list >> >> > > --089e013cc3862d7d6004d7253d1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the few answers, though those few=A0were very Helpful.= =A0The problem was that some people (even after 4 or more years of u= niversity), especially including almost all beginners, do not know how to s= tart building something that does something helpful for soceity and everyon= e around them -- and this is yet to be resolved.=A0

<= /span>
I read a whole bunch of reviews of the learning resources I linked t= o last month. Here's one I Love -- "There should be exaggerated claims of ultimate = learning outcomes without evidence"[1] My=A0response, attached with the answers= below=A0for reference:=A0When wonderful talents do things like=A0kickstarter.com/projects/1369857650/real-python-for-web-development-featur= ing-web2py -- I wonder about what is even more significant -- "Is = it effective? Does it solve the problem?"=A0When I (and others far newer than me) have a serious problem like this, yo= u know, we care very much for accurate and reliable data.=A0When people say "Learn Python t= he Hardway is probably the best resource you listed.. [and] you=A0will=A0learn the material.." when clearly it doesn't meet st= andards: "I have seeen plenty of stackoverflow and student ques= tions about it. In short, it's horrible." I start to wonder about = the reliability of their judgement, and how partial they really are. Even i= f "A friend of mine wrote the course" is not factor we care about= . Maybe hardway was the highest Quality resource out of those (I personally= liked the MIT videos from what I've seen). So maybe, but best in the r= oom with a low ceiling isn't very good.=A0I try really really hard not to touch objects of low= quality (<4.9 stars)=A0http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/059615810= 6

I've been trying to learn programming for 8 years, = so I'm a great canidiate. So Michael, I would gladly give you any feedb= ack on the usability of your product anytime you ask :)


<= /span>


On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Philipp Hagemeis= ter=A0<phihag@phihag.de>=A0wrote:
>=A0http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/
I have never used that myself, but I have seeen plenty of stackoverflow
= and student questions about it. In short, it's horrible.

The boo= k mostly consists of basic Python programs, and beginners often
fail to = grasp even the most basic structures demonstrated, mainly
because they're not explained. The book has some of the easy-to-approac= h
informality of, say, the Head First ones, but fails to contain the the=
actual explanations for it.

(And I have no idea why one would st= art with Python 2.x, given that
everything's strange in there - instead of relying on the intuitive
= grasp that both "a" and "=E4" are single character stri= ngs, and that print
is a function like any other, they have to work with= a lot of magic and
hand-waving)

- Philipp


On Thu, = Feb 21, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Mark Janssen=A0<dreamingforward@gmail.co= m>=A0wrote:
Sorry, I gave you the wrong book (a different Lutz book). = =A0The correct
title is _Programming Python_, by Mark Lutz. =A0It's like 1600 pages an= d
is application focused.

Cheers!
mark


On = Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Michael Herman=A0<hermanmu@gmail.com>= ;=A0wrote:
Hi Claira,

I understand how hard it can= be. Learn Python the Hardway is probably the best resource you listed. It&= #39;s a bit unorganized, but you=A0will=A0learn the material if you = go through all the exercises and homework problems.

That said, the author does dive into some areas that ar= e not really necessary for beginners, which is a problem with most Python b= ooks. Check out=A0= http://www.realpython.com/. It's one of the best resources out ther= e. A friend of mine wrote the course. Right now, I am in the process of wri= ting a companion course called Real Python for the Web, where you learn how= to develop websites. So, you would start with the first course to learn th= e syntax and then you could move onto the second course to learn web develo= pment.

The Kickstarter is live for the second course -=A0http://kck.st/VQj8hq

There is a special right now where you can get both co= urses for $25 on the Kickstarter. Plus, once I hit $15k, which should be in= the next few days, I will hit a stretch goal for making video tutorials fo= r the first course.

Anyway, sorry to plug my product - but I feel your pain= , which is why Real Python was developed in the first place: Less syntax an= d theory, more coding and learning. Learning by doing.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

B= est,

Michael=A0

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Claira=A0<waveclaira@= gmail.com>=A0wrote:
The problem: I've done read= ing (like on=A0quora), and it seems lots of beginners (and I know first-han= d for me), and even for those that have done 4 years at university -- that = they say they don't know how to build something after all the theory an= d stuff.=A0Even though I'm not going to be a programmer, in the future,= there may be something that would need programming, so=A0learning what'= ;s needed is a good thing.=A0For example,=A0I thought you=A0could=A0just wa= ve=A0leapmotion.com= =A0and it just works, but it's still 2013. On=A0quora, they say that yo= u need to code for it to actually do things.=A0Could someone who is good at= it rank these sources (or provide a good one) on how well they solve the p= roblem?

http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/
--
http://mail.python.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/python-list




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