X-FeedAbuse: http://nntpfeed.proxad.net/abuse.pl feeded by 78.192.65.63 Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!nntpfeed.proxad.net!news.muarf.org!news.roellig-ltd.de!open-news-network.org!cyclone03.ams2.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!voer-me.highwinds-media.com!lightspeed.eweka.nl!lightspeed.eweka.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.019 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.96; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.05; 'float': 0.05; 'from:addr:yahoo.co.uk': 0.05; "ain't": 0.09; 'creighton': 0.09; 'overwrite': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'bug': 0.10; '"python': 0.16; 'measurement': 0.16; 'precision,': 0.16; 'reboot': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'scientists': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; 'figures': 0.18; 'laura': 0.18; 'language': 0.19; 'tracker': 0.20; 'trying': 0.22; 'are.': 0.22; 'lawrence': 0.22; 'accuracy': 0.23; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.24; '(this': 0.24; 'install': 0.25; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.26; 'arithmetic': 0.29; 'decimal': 0.29; 'mind,': 0.29; 'really,': 0.29; 'lines': 0.30; "can't": 0.32; 'up.': 0.32; 'language.': 0.32; 'topic': 0.32; 'getting': 0.33; 'point': 0.33; 'point,': 0.33; 'subject:?': 0.34; 'to:addr :python-list': 0.35; 'next': 0.35; 'done': 0.35; 'along': 0.35; 'knowledge': 0.35; 'really': 0.35; 'but': 0.36; 'subject:" ': 0.36; 'expressed': 0.37; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'instead': 0.38; "won't": 0.38; 'received:org': 0.38; 'doing': 0.38; 'mean': 0.38; 'means': 0.39; 'things': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'well.': 0.40; 'mark': 0.40; 'called': 0.40; 'some': 0.40; 'your': 0.60; 'back': 0.61; 'even': 0.61; 'real': 0.61; 'day,': 0.62; 'more': 0.62; 'you.': 0.64; 'world': 0.64; 'our': 0.64; 'charset:windows-1252': 0.65; 'results': 0.66; 'matter.': 0.66; 'soon': 0.67; 'believe': 0.67; 'teach': 0.70; 'surprise': 0.72; 'inform': 0.79; 'demand': 0.79; 'calculations': 0.84; 'incredulous': 0.84; 'pythonistas,': 0.84; 'stamp': 0.91; 'trouble.': 0.91 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Mark Lawrence Subject: Re: What is considered an "advanced" topic in Python? Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 11:34:08 +0100 References: <28cec7df-0f51-4098-b027-72e913a9b656@googlegroups.com> <1433128706.32838.283108057.2C4C8613@webmail.messagingengine.com> <201506010758.t517wR9T015894@fido.openend.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: host-92-18-38-147.as13285.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 In-Reply-To: <201506010758.t517wR9T015894@fido.openend.se> X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+ Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1433154857 news.xs4all.nl 2916 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:36596 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl X-Received-Body-CRC: 1423745521 X-Received-Bytes: 6215 Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:91650 On 01/06/2015 08:58, Laura Creighton wrote: > If you are giving a talk about Decimal -- and trying to stamp out the > inappropriate use of floats you have to first inform people that > what they learned as 'decimals' as children was not floating point, > despite the fact that we write them the same way. > > If I ever get the time machine, I am going back in time and demand that > floating point numbers be expressed as 12345:678 instead of 12345.678 > because it would save so much trouble. Never has the adage 'It's not > what you don't know, that bites you. It's what you know that ain't so.' > been more apt. > > I have done much better in speaking about this topic to a bunch of > incredulous people if you next explain that scientists really don't > care about accuracy in their calculations. (This will surprise them). > Most scentific calculations have some real world measurement in them, > and for most real world measurements, if you are getting even 5 digits > of precision, you are doing really, really, well. This means that > scientists are going to be throwing away all the extra digits they get > out a a floating point representation, so they don't have to care how > accurate they are. As long as their results are good in the first 5, > it won't matter. (Depending on time constraints, a review of > significant figures -- what they are and what they mean is good here.) > > It is really hard to get the concept of Decimal across to people who > already have that concept in their mind, but think it is called Float. > You have to first teach them that they don't know anything about Float > and get them to reboot their brains before you can install this new > knowledge. Otherwise their brains will just overwrite your new knowledge > with 'ah, just use a Float' as soon as you stop speaking. Same day, > even. > > Laura > In the wonderful world of numbers I believe that things are looking up. I don't recall a new issue on the bug tracker for several months along the lines of "Python can't do arithmetic properly". -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence