Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!feeder.news-service.com!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'python,': 0.01; 'languages,': 0.03; 'modified': 0.05; 'parameter': 0.05; 'refers': 0.07; 'snippet': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; 'declarations': 0.09; 'function:': 0.09; 'subject:parameters': 0.09; 'variables.': 0.09; 'output': 0.11; 'def': 0.12; 'am,': 0.14; 'debugging': 0.14; 'wrote:': 0.14; "['a": 0.16; 'adopted': 0.16; 'encountered.': 0.16; 'entirely.': 0.16; 'explanation': 0.16; 'function?': 0.16; 'illustrates': 0.16; 'made-up': 0.16; 'main():': 0.16; 'outputs': 0.16; 'subject:function': 0.16; 'url:effbot': 0.16; 'url:zone': 0.16; 'case.': 0.16; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.17; 'cheers,': 0.19; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.21; 'variable': 0.21; 'seems': 0.21; 'cc:2**0': 0.22; 'cc:no real name:2**0': 0.23; 'here?': 0.23; 'received:209.85.213.46': 0.23; 'received:mail- yw0-f46.google.com': 0.23; 'objects': 0.23; 'code': 0.24; 'function': 0.25; 'changed': 0.25; 'parameters': 0.26; 'statement': 0.26; 'object': 0.26; 'example': 0.27; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.28; 'changing': 0.28; 'problem': 0.28; 'effect': 0.29; 'explicitly': 0.29; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.30; 'fact': 0.30; 'sun,': 0.30; 'print': 0.31; 'does': 0.33; 'list': 0.33; 'chris': 0.34; 'rule': 0.34; 'there': 0.35; 'function.': 0.35; 'received:132': 0.35; 'considered': 0.36; 'several': 0.36; 'uses': 0.36; 'received:google.com': 0.37; 'something': 0.37; 'received:209.85': 0.37; 'received:209.85.213': 0.37; 'another': 0.37; 'model': 0.37; 'url:org': 0.38; 'but': 0.38; 'third': 0.38; 'subject:: ': 0.38; 'should': 0.39; 'unless': 0.39; 'received:209': 0.39; 'spent': 0.39; 'missing': 0.40; 'worth': 0.60; 'more': 0.60; 'below': 0.61; 'order': 0.62; 'matter': 0.63; 'due': 0.67; 'url:htm': 0.71; 'either,': 0.84 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ucsd.edu; i=crebert@ucsd.edu; q=dns/txt; s=041709-iport; t=1306663323; x=1338199323; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id: subject:from:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; z=MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20|Date:=20Sun,=2029=20May =202011=2003:01:52=20-0700|Message-ID:=20|Subject:=20Re:=20s cope=20of=20function=20parameters|From:=20Chris=20Rebert =20|To:=20Henry=20Olders=20|Cc:=20python-list@python.org |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable; bh=nNGTAWH6s4x63/Jdc5G2eo/8ng1wP4wuYKuHrsSvcTM=; b=fYlyeyWkGcKI7FpjeGD5+orunytUg/vkJkSJQMevg69y2lp+a7Qf9gSK GvQDK8n4WzUJk7kGU0Y6F8n6hTZwQinMFwlCHQKQ4buxK2bESRD+RBY00 bZcheERhuqb92hVIRk5v4t4uzaXA42vYGNIXBBEl4AdPk97E1OSSBwMyC g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhIFABYY4k2E7/kU/2dsb2JhbABVhEmhbwh3iHGiRItihlKIdIErg2yBBwSGZIlrhDCGdjuDWQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,288,1304319600"; d="scan'208";a="533078392" X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Level: MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 03:01:52 -0700 Subject: Re: scope of function parameters From: Chris Rebert To: Henry Olders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: python-list@python.org X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.94.164.166 X-Trace: 1306663324 news.xs4all.nl 49038 [::ffff:82.94.164.166]:46068 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:6523 On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 1:30 AM, Henry Olders wrot= e: > I just spent a considerable amount of time and effort debugging a program= . The made-up code snippet below illustrates the problem I encountered: > > def main(): > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a =3D ['a list','with','three elements'] > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0print a > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0print fnc1(a) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0print a > > def fnc1(b): > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0return fnc2(b) > > def fnc2(c): > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c[1] =3D 'having' > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0return c > > This is the output: > ['a list', 'with', 'three elements'] > ['a list', 'having', 'three elements'] > ['a list', 'having', 'three elements'] > > I had expected the third print statement to give the same output as the f= irst, but variable a had been changed by changing variable c in fnc2. To be more accurate, the list object referred to by `a` was modified through c, due to the fact that a, b, and c all refer to the very same object in this case. > It seems that in Python, a variable inside a function is global unless it= 's assigned. This rule has apparently been adopted in order to reduce clutt= er by not having to have global declarations all over the place. > > I would have thought that a function parameter would automatically be con= sidered local to the function. > Are there others who feel as I do that a function parameter should always= be local to the function? Or am I missing something here? Function parameters *are* local variables. Function parameters are indeed local in that *rebinding* them has no effect outside of the function: def foo(a): a =3D 42 def bar(): b =3D 1 foo(b) print b bar() #=3D> outputs 1 As you've observed, *mutating* the object a variable refers to is another matter entirely. Python does not use call-by-value and does not copy objects unless explicitly requested to, as you've encountered. But it does not use call-by-reference either, as my example demonstrates. Like several other popular contemporary languages, Python uses call-by-object for parameter passing; a good explanation of this model can be found at http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm It's well worth reading. Cheers, Chris