Path: csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail From: Chris Angelico Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Subject: Re: Regular expressions Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:52:08 +1100 Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <662g3blobme52hfoududj27err185v2npm@4ax.com> <56398006$0$11100$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <89a2a4a7-f483-4e94-9f68-ba77ce4b7598@googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de sAFmV4aThfhVr0CbPdUN1QL9EzD2S1nr5HWjAZjeYPiA== Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.021 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.96; '*S*': 0.00; 'received:209.85.223': 0.03; 'expressions': 0.07; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.09; 'thu,': 0.15; '"does': 0.16; 'clear.': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'loops': 0.16; 'received:io': 0.16; 'received:psf.io': 0.16; 'subject:Regular': 0.16; 'subject:expressions': 0.16; 'usage,': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; "wouldn't": 0.16; 'string': 0.17; 'abuse': 0.18; 'expanded': 0.18; '(not': 0.20; '2015': 0.20; 'cc:2**0': 0.20; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.20; 'do.': 0.22; 'uses.': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'am,': 0.23; 'bit': 0.23; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.24; 'earlier': 0.27; 'error': 0.27; 'question': 0.27; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.27; 'regular': 0.29; 'arithmetic': 0.29; 'search.': 0.29; 'sure,': 0.29; "i'm": 0.30; 'that.': 0.30; "can't": 0.32; 'aside': 0.32; 'computing': 0.32; 'though,': 0.32; 'common': 0.33; 'point,': 0.33; 'science.': 0.33; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'text': 0.35; 'exist': 0.35; 'nov': 0.35; 'programming.': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'level': 0.35; 'but': 0.36; 'web,': 0.36; 'received:209.85': 0.36; '(and': 0.36; 'basic': 0.36; "wasn't": 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'setting': 0.37; 'no,': 0.38; 'received:209': 0.38; 'anything': 0.38; 'still': 0.40; 'called': 0.40; 'some': 0.40; 'advanced': 0.61; 'making': 0.62; 'more': 0.63; 'fundamental': 0.66; 'python-list': 0.66; 'afraid': 0.67; 'talking': 0.67; 'teach': 0.70; 'chrisa': 0.84; 'computers.': 0.84; 'excel,': 0.84; 'only:': 0.84; 'spreadsheet': 0.84; 'to:none': 0.91; 'beings': 0.91; 'browse': 0.96 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=hLXpI/vJHipxX9fAgyNGaWbnT0oMv9HFLEhFXS5VIS0=; b=t5bTyy+M4hdhANoBotIse4IH6BDs61wtqlsH23Nz3ZnzDC8ogB3eZVUxeK+OVD5TOs CFbzvinPmGLlKANU8aBvkJf0ma4vNn+6HdodA+YJyth6C/+Ynbw8tXnfdjX+qTdDm5u6 OpyPolVC5N1VtYPI2vzWt3KzfGsXX9ySDR0sTvCUzygX09Y09pkr/Vnhmx+WA6C+HhrF 2eS8nzyuluWq/kYDiogyQLjbfzCpS0onomDLFi6tHA/FBgdlCPTtvSG5Xb6Zp9ISO2IB GCFepWBVRv4QMsve1m9VzTdSsBoDYA2kDabA//ZDoQcQLO61Tfeo/NZakIibzs8BNonk nS4w== X-Received: by 10.107.10.210 with SMTP id 79mr3399934iok.31.1446648729079; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 06:52:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <89a2a4a7-f483-4e94-9f68-ba77ce4b7598@googlegroups.com> X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+ Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:98230 On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:38 AM, rurpy--- via Python-list wrote: > I'm afraid you are making a category error but perhaps that's in > part because I wasn't clear. I was not talking about computer > science. I was talking about human beings learning about computers. > Most people I know consider programming to be a higher level activity > than "using" a computer: editing, sending email etc. Many computer > users (not programmers) learn to use regular expressions as part > of using a computer without knowing anything about programming. > It was on that basis I called them more fundamental -- something > learned earlier which is expanded on and added to later. But you > have a bit of a point, perhaps "fundamental" was not the best choice > of word to communicate that. The "fundamentals" of something are its most basic functions, not its most basic uses. The most common use of a computer might be to browse the web, but the fundamental functionality is arithmetic and logic. Setting aside the choice of word, though, I still don't think regular expressions are a more basic use of computing than loops and conditionals. A regex can't be used for anything other than string matching; they exist for one purpose, and one purpose only: to answer the question "Does this string match this pattern?". Sure, you can abuse that into a primality check and other forms of crazy arithmetic, but it's not what they truly do. I also would not teach regexes to people as part of an "introduction to computing" course, any more than I would teach the use of Microsoft Excel, which some such courses have been known to do. (And no, it's not because of the Microsoftness. I wouldn't teach LibreOffice Calc either.) You don't need to know how to work a spreadsheet as part of the basics of computer usage, and you definitely don't need an advanced form of text search. ChrisA