Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!goblin3!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.030 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.94; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'context': 0.07; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'martin': 0.11; 'jan': 0.12; 'messy': 0.16; 'punish': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'reedy': 0.16; 'says...': 0.16; 'titled': 0.16; 'followed': 0.16; 'prevent': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; '>>>': 0.22; 'saying': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'options': 0.25; 'header:X -Complaints-To:1': 0.27; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'robert': 0.30; 'along': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; '2009,': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'noted': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'writes:': 0.31; 'there.': 0.32; 'this.': 0.32; 'could': 0.34; "who's": 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; "didn't": 0.36; 'problems': 0.38; 'to:addr:python- list': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'bad': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'easy': 0.60; 'eventually': 0.60; 'took': 0.61; 'real': 0.63; 'url:v': 0.71; 'url:youtube': 0.71; 'url:watch': 0.77; 'article': 0.77; 'counteract': 0.84; 'received:fios.verizon.net': 0.84; 'enterprises.': 0.91; 'killed': 0.91; 'watched': 0.91; 'received:108': 0.93; 'garden': 0.95 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Terry Reedy Subject: Re: What killed Smalltalk could kill Python Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 00:45:23 -0500 References: <54bfd513$0$12978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <873873ae91.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-108-16-203-145.phlapa.fios.verizon.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1421905536 news.xs4all.nl 2916 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:35249 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:84191 On 1/21/2015 7:16 PM, Mario Figueiredo wrote: > In article <873873ae91.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net>, > no.email@nospam.invalid says... >> >> Steven D'Aprano writes: >>> In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed >>> Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 >> >> That's an hour-long video; could someone who's watched it give a brief >> summary? >> > > In a nutshell, he argues, along with Ward Cunningham, that what killed > Smalltalk was how easy you could create unclean code with it. "Unclean" > in this context means Smalltalk didn't punish bad software design > decisions that would eventually lead into complex code and unmanageable > systems with zero options of code maintenance. He followed that by saying that fine-grained test-driven development is the way to prevent unholy messes. He noted that tdd started in smalltalk, but never really took there. Reason 2: arrogance -- the walled garden and disdain for the messy problems of real enterprises. He did not seem as sure about how to counteract this. -- Terry Jan Reedy