Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder1.news.weretis.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.028 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.95; '*S*': 0.00; 'python,': 0.02; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'environments': 0.07; 'modify': 0.07; 'suppose': 0.07; 'martin': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'mostly': 0.14; '(same': 0.16; '-tkc': 0.16; 'from:addr:python.list': 0.16; 'from:addr:tim.thechases.com': 0.16; 'from:name:tim chase': 0.16; 'holy': 0.16; 'titled': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'trying': 0.19; 'examples': 0.20; 'preferred': 0.22; 'install': 0.23; '(or': 0.24; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'installed': 0.27; 'tried': 0.27; 'wondering': 0.29; 'points': 0.29; 'returned': 0.30; 'robert': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; '2009,': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'file': 0.32; 'figure': 0.32; 'run': 0.32; 'addresses': 0.33; 'could': 0.34; 'something': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'web,': 0.36; 'charset:us-ascii': 0.36; 'experience,': 0.37; 'received:10': 0.37; 'easily': 0.37; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'anything': 0.39; "couldn't": 0.39; 'environment.': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'either': 0.39; 'how': 0.40; 'eventually': 0.60; 'most': 0.60; 'times': 0.62; 'fire': 0.65; 'world': 0.66; 'reply': 0.66; 'biggest': 0.67; 'watching': 0.68; 'hour': 0.70; 'low': 0.83; 'fate?': 0.84; 'fought': 0.84; "michael's": 0.84; 'pain': 0.84; 'score.': 0.84; 'killed': 0.91; 'received:108': 0.93 X-Sender-Id: wwwh|x-authuser|tim@thechases.com X-Sender-Id: wwwh|x-authuser|tim@thechases.com X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: wwwh|x-authuser|tim@thechases.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: wwwh X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1421864398661:3173099758 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1421864398661 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 12:21:54 -0600 From: Tim Chase To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: What killed Smalltalk could kill Python In-Reply-To: <54bfd513$0$12978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <54bfd513$0$12978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.1 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: tim@thechases.com X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1421864740 news.xs4all.nl 2895 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:56953 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:84135 On 2015-01-22 03:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > In 2009, Robert Martin gave a talk at RailsConf titled "What Killed > Smalltalk Could Kill Ruby". Holy pacing, Batman. Watching it at 2x leaves me wondering how much of the stage was worn off during the presentation. > And now it's all but dead. Why did it die, and how can Python (or > Ruby for that matter) avoid the same fate? In my experience, most Python has a particularly low WTF-per-minute score. But mostly Michael's reply addresses my biggest pain points the last couple times I tried Smalltalk: The whole "images" thing impeded me from easily using my development preferred environment. With Python, I can just install it and then either fire up the REPL, or type some code into a file and run it (same I suppose would go for Ruby). I fought for over an hour trying to figure out how to just get ANYTHING to run in Smalltalk. I installed Squeak on Debian and yet I couldn't get any code examples to run. I had to go find some environments on the web, download them, modify them, and eventually something ran. Eventually I just gave up and returned to a world where everything made sense. -tkc