Path: csiph.com!news.swapon.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
From: Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: WP-A: A New URL Shortener
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:34:18 -0400
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On Tuesday 15 March 2016 19:55:52 Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
>
> <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
> > Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> >>
> >> <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
> >>> [=E2=80=A6] I cannot be sure because I have not thought this through,=
 but
> >>> with
> >
> >                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >>> aliases for common second-level domains, and with text
> >>> compression, it should be possible to do this without a database.
> >>
> >> How? If you shorten URLs, you have to be able to reconstruct the
> >> long ones. Compression can't do that to arbitrary lengths.
> >> Somewhere there needs to be the rest of the information.
> >
> > First of all, you quoted me out of context.
>
> I trimmed the context. You got a problem with that?
>
> > Second, do you even read what you reply to?  See the markings above.
>
> Instead of thinking about URL shorteners specifically, think generally
> about information theory. You cannot, fundamentally, shorten all URLs
> arbitrarily. There just isn't enough room to store the information.
>
> > And as for second-level domains, consider for example =E2=80=9Ct.c=E2=
=80=9D instead
> > of =E2=80=9Ctwitter.com=E2=80=9D as part of the short URI.
>
> That'll work only for the ones that you code in specifically, and
> that's only shortening your URL by 8 characters. A typical URL needing
> shortening is over 80 characters - maybe several hundred. You need to
> cut that down to a manageable length. That fundamentally cannot be
> reversed without readding information.

And I submit that putting someone in charge of the drives organization,=20
and the database on that drive that the url has to dig thru, can make a=20
huge difference in the length of the resultant url.

> >>> And with the exception of Twitter-ish sites that place a limit on
> >>> message length, there really is *no need* for shorter URIs
> >>> nowadays.  (HTTP) clients and servers are capable of processing
> >>> really long ones [1]; electronic communications media and related
> >>> software, too [2].  And data storage space as well as data
> >>> transmission has become exceptionally inexpensive.  A few less
> >>> bytes there do not count.

They may not count for that much in terms of what the user pays for=20
bandwidth, but see below.  And some users are probably still paying for=20
their internet access by the minute in some locales.

> >> There are many places where there are limits (hard or soft) on
> >> message lengths. Some of us still use MUDs and 80-character line
> >> limits.
> >
> > See above.  Covered by [2].
>
> Unrelated. Not covered by that link. Go use a MUD some time.
>
> > But speaking of length limits, the lines in your postings are too
> > long, according to Usenet convention.  I had to correct the
> > quotations so that they remained readable when word-wrapped.
>
> Oh, so you'd rather the lines be cut to... I dunno, 80 characters?
> Might be a good reason to use a URL shortener.
>
usenet generally encourages us to set our word wrap at 72 to 73=20
characters so there is room for the invitable additions of the quote >=20
character so we can track who said what.  That is just common good=20
practice.

> >> Business cards or other printed media need to be transcribed by
> >> hand. Dictation of URLs becomes virtually impossible when they're
> >> arbitrarily long.

OTOH, url's in excess of 250 characters long exist only to polish ego's=20
of the people involved or demonstrate that they could not organize a=20
company picnic in a 4 person company.

=46ew enough recognize that problem and post their urls on the form of=20
<url> which most email agents recognize as a url, that before=20
presentation to a browser when you click on it, will then go thru it,=20
stripping out the line feeds and carriage returns so that the original=20
as pasted and wrecked by the emailers word wrapping, is restored and it=20
has at least a snowballs chance in hell of working.

But you can't teach a winderz user to do that any better than you can=20
break them from top posting.

> > (You are not reading at all, are you?)  This is covered by that:
> >>> Instead, there *is* a need for *concise*, *semantic* URIs that Web
> >>> (service) users can *easily* *remember*.  It is the duty of the
> >>> original Web authors=E2=88=95developers to make sure that there are, =
and I
> >>> think that no kind of automation is going to ease or replace
> >>> thoughtful path design anytime soon (but please, prove me wrong):
> >>
> >> Sure...... if you control the destination server. What if you're
> >> engaging in scholarly discussion about someone else's content? You
> >> can't change the canonical URLs, and you can't simply copy their
> >> content to your own server (either for licensing reasons or to
> >> guarantee that the official version hasn't been tampered with).
> >
> > That is why I said it is the duty of the original
> > authors/developers.  It is a community effort, and it is not going
> > to happen overnight.  But evading the problem with unreliable
> > replacements such as =E2=80=9Cshort URLs=E2=80=9D is not going to solve=
 it either.

True, its fixing the wrong end of the problem.

> So, you can go fight an unwinnable battle against literally every web
> creator in the world. Meanwhile, I'll keep on using URL shorteners.
>
> ChrisA

Cheers, Gene Heskett
=2D-=20
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
=2DEd Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>