Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!usenet.pasdenom.info!aioe.org!feeder.news-service.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed5.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:: [': 0.03; 'else:': 0.03; 'arguments': 0.05; 'parameter': 0.05; 'way:': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; '__name__': 0.09; 'arguments,': 0.09; 'declarations': 0.09; 'from:addr:python': 0.09; 'func': 0.09; 'messing': 0.09; 'scripts,': 0.09; 'pm,': 0.10; '>>>': 0.12; 'def': 0.12; 'written': 0.14; 'wrote:': 0.14; "'__main__':": 0.16; '*any*': 0.16; 'disadvantage': 0.16; 'from:addr:mrabarnett.plus.com': 0.16; 'from:name:mrab': 0.16; "function's": 0.16; 'lambda': 0.16; 'logging,': 0.16; 'made-up': 0.16; 'message-id:@mrabarnett.plus.com': 0.16; 'nick': 0.16; 'optimizing': 0.16; 'received:84.92': 0.16; 'received:84.92.122': 0.16; 'received:84.92.122.60': 0.16; 'reply-to:addr:python-list': 0.16; 'runtime.': 0.16; 'solves': 0.16; 'subject:function': 0.16; 'verbose)': 0.16; 'argument': 0.16; "subject:' ": 0.16; 'useful,': 0.16; "wouldn't": 0.17; 'mon,': 0.17; 'functions,': 0.19; 'of.': 0.19; 'perl': 0.19; 'programming': 0.19; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.21; 'seems': 0.21; '(or': 0.24; 'code': 0.24; 'received:84': 0.25; 'function': 0.25; 'parameters': 0.26; '(in': 0.26; 'problem': 0.28; 'depends': 0.29; 'variables': 0.29; 'instead': 0.29; 'least': 0.30; 'fairly': 0.30; 'binding': 0.30; 'signatures': 0.30; 'looks': 0.31; 'google': 0.31; 'print': 0.31; 'shared': 0.32; 'steven': 0.32; 'word.': 0.32; 'to:addr:python- list': 0.33; 'list': 0.33; 'list.': 0.33; 'too': 0.33; 'things': 0.33; "i've": 0.33; 'option': 0.35; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.35; "d'aprano": 0.35; 'reply-to:addr:python.org': 0.35; 'symbol': 0.35; 'visible': 0.35; 'widespread': 0.35; 'test': 0.35; 'actual': 0.36; 'probably': 0.36; 'uses': 0.36; 'none': 0.37; 'useful': 0.37; 'hack': 0.37; 'ways': 0.37; 'another': 0.37; 'could': 0.38; 'but': 0.38; 'some': 0.38; 'doing': 0.39; 'should': 0.39; 'add': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'happen': 0.60; 'more': 0.60; 'your': 0.60; 'piece': 0.63; 'harder': 0.65; 'kept': 0.67; 'header :Reply-To:1': 0.72; 'reply-to:no real name:2**0': 0.72; 'injecting': 0.84; 'locals': 0.84; 'resistance': 0.84; 'so:': 0.84; 'subject:local': 0.84; 'dutch': 0.91; 'complexity': 0.93 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjgHAIIv9k3Unw4S/2dsb2JhbABSmBaOJHfIN4YkBJYDiw8 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:43:11 +0100 From: MRAB User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] 'Injecting' objects as function-local constants References: <20110611133028.GD2395@chopin.edu.pl> <4BDDEB96-1EBD-477C-BA08-7750AB42B579@gmail.com> <20110612222236.GA2540@chopin.edu.pl> <4DF53DF1.9060804@canterbury.ac.nz> <4DF5B83C.9070206@pearwood.info> <4DF61FCE.4050206@pearwood.info> In-Reply-To: <4DF61FCE.4050206@pearwood.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: python-list@python.org List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 71 NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.94.164.166 X-Trace: 1307979856 news.xs4all.nl 49180 [::ffff:82.94.164.166]:57473 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:7525 On 13/06/2011 15:33, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Nick Coghlan wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Steven D'Aprano >> wrote: >>> Function parameters should be kept for actual arguments, not for >>> optimizing >>> name look-ups. >> >> Still, the post-** shared state (Jan's option 2) is likely the most >> obvious way to get early binding for *any* purpose without polluting >> the externally visible parameter list. > > I wouldn't call adding even more complexity to function signatures > "obvious", although I grant that it depends on whether you're Dutch :) > > Another disadvantage is that it uses a symbol instead of a word. Too > many symbols, and your code looks like Perl (or APL). It's hard to > google for ** to find out what it means. It's harder to talk about a > symbol than a word. (In written text you can just write ** but in speech > you have to use circumlocutions or made-up names like double-splat.) > > [...] >> It seems like the path of least resistance to me - the prevalence of >> the default argument hack means there's an existing, widespread >> practice that solves real programming issues, but is flawed in some >> ways (specifically, messing with the function's signature). Allowing >> declarations of shared state after the keyword-only arguments seems >> like a fairly obvious answer. > > The problem with injecting locals in the parameter list is that it can > only happen at write-time. That's useful, but there's a major > opportunity being missed: to be able to inject at runtime. You could add > test mocks, optimized functions, logging, turn global variables into > local constants, and probably things I've never thought of. > > Here's one use-case to give a flavour of what I have in mind: if you're > writing Unix-like scripts, one piece of useful functionality is "verbose > mode". Here's one way of doing so: > > def do_work(args, verbose=False): > if verbose: > pr = print > else: > pr = lambda *args: None > pr("doing spam") > spam() > pr("doing ham") > ham() > # and so on > > if __name__ == '__main__': > verbose = '--verbose' in sys.argv > do_work(my_arguments, verbose) > [snip] Here's another way: def do_work(args): do_work.pr("doing spam") spam() do_work.pr("doing ham") ham() # and so on if __name__ == '__main__': verbose = '--verbose' in sys.argv if '--verbose' in sys.argv: do_work.pr = print else: do_work.pr = lambda func: func # do nothing do_work(my_arguments)