Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.188 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.62; '*S*': 0.00; 'explicitly': 0.05; 'referring': 0.07; 'responding': 0.07; '"is': 0.16; '>>': 0.16; '>>on': 0.16; '>on': 0.16; 'authors,': 0.16; "chris'": 0.16; 'ignoring': 0.16; 'readers,': 0.16; 'sender:addr:gmail.com': 0.17; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'community,': 0.19; '>>>': 0.22; 'community.': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; '>>>': 0.24; "aren't": 0.24; 'subject:problem': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; '>': 0.26; 'posts': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'chris': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'especially': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'too.': 0.31; 'usually': 0.31; '>>>>': 0.31; 'away.': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'though.': 0.31; 'probably': 0.32; 'maybe': 0.34; 'agree': 0.35; 'point.': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'building': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; "he's": 0.36; 'impression': 0.36; 'skip:> 10': 0.36; 'useful': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'wrong': 0.37; 'list': 0.37; 'to:addr :python-list': 0.38; 'list,': 0.38; 'sure': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'how': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'skip:u 10': 0.60; 'new': 0.61; 'matter': 0.61; 'making': 0.63; 'information': 0.63; 'happen': 0.63; 'him,': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'different': 0.65; 'entitled': 0.65; 'side': 0.67; 'between': 0.67; 'response.': 0.68; 'answer.': 0.68; 'feeling': 0.68; 'readers': 0.68; 'stated': 0.69; 'helping': 0.70; 'category.': 0.84; 'different.': 0.84; 'pardon': 0.84; 'welcoming': 0.84; 'edwards': 0.91; 'response,': 0.91; 'same,': 0.91; 'responses': 0.93; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=n7nyFPg9mcbxl7561tPIlmyQNl68g8AgNqvzJoBTGIA=; b=hJaBO02EiwVn/5MYnCG/NOOUvq5Rsm7helsLQFD/9fbYlZEucKJwnlv+3X+p89YRem V6OFi5aJFXsUF0oWbnyeG0hRfX8kMnUDUtsO94As8tOc3kHgHItJd3h6TQ3iihAxnk5R dxy24NYv2FQnyYdkbvnvGvi1BS3dqf42PrF13OJiBNiplhg0efFRRAp5xEoLB8fwddyC tP85IQ62N9NB6snL+dbvdDuROXfcRAdKUaNKlacrBuQbgjYC9DO6CfWgwwF0J4veSer+ GMelWOPJpHOU1ZwuWcybgAvQXaXFjd4qGK+8TRF7ndSXshgrX2bk5UlPpxTFS1HsxQkm p+eQ== X-Received: by 10.236.5.174 with SMTP id 34mr16376391yhl.48.1382980127546; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Ned Batchelder Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:08:45 -0400 From: Ned Batchelder User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Cookie fucking problem References: <7wzjpvaetr.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <526e15f2$0$2838$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <526E7DCA.9080908@rece.vub.ac.be> In-Reply-To: <526E7DCA.9080908@rece.vub.ac.be> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010400060401080607010001" Cc: Antoon Pardon X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 120 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1382980136 news.xs4all.nl 15994 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:39890 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:57838 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010400060401080607010001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/28/13 11:07 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote: > Op 28-10-13 15:38, Chris Angelico schreef: >> >On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: >>> >>On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>>Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that >>>> >>>unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear. >>> >> >>> >>So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and >>> >>just encourage more posts from Nikos. I'm sure the_intent_ is >>> >>different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical. >> > >> >I still maintain that I'm not*baiting* him, though. > I don't care. Maybe you can find some semantical rule, that will > give your behaviour an other etiket than "baiting", in the end > the effect on the list is the same, with Nikos feeling entitled > to insist to get an answer. > > And if we want this to be a welcoming community, then we have to > care about the effects and not about the semantical category. So > should you want this to be a welcoming community, then you are > focussing on the wrong point. > I agree it is probably best to err on the side of ignoring Nikos. But there is a distinction between (say) Chris' response and Mark's. The effect on Nikos is the same, but the effect on other readers, especially readers new to the list, is very different. We've already seen a few new people explicitly asking, "is this what usually happens on this list?" and they weren't referring to the Chris-style response, they were referring to the Mark-style response. If we want this to be a welcoming community, we have to understand that there are many more readers than there are authors, and the impression we make on them matters too. Responding negatively, no matter how humorously, is not going to improve the group. It might amuse the regulars, but it is not building a strong and welcoming community. I also happen to think that responding negatively won't even achieve its stated purpose of making the help-vampire go away. --Ned. --------------010400060401080607010001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/28/13 11:07 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
Op 28-10-13 15:38, Chris Angelico schreef:

> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>

>>> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
>>> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear.

>>
>> So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and
>> just encourage more posts from Nikos.  I'm sure the _intent_ is
>> different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical.

> 
> I still maintain that I'm not *baiting* him, though.

I don't care. Maybe you can find some semantical rule, that will
give your behaviour an other etiket than "baiting", in the end
the effect on the list is the same, with Nikos feeling entitled
to insist to get an answer.

And if we want this to be a welcoming community, then we have to
care about the effects and not about the semantical category. So
should you want this to be a welcoming community, then you are
focussing on the wrong point.

I agree it is probably best to err on the side of ignoring Nikos.  But there is a distinction between (say) Chris' response and Mark's.  The effect on Nikos is the same, but the effect on other readers, especially readers new to the list, is very different.

We've already seen a few new people explicitly asking, "is this what usually happens on this list?" and they weren't referring to the Chris-style response, they were referring to the Mark-style response.

If we want this to be a welcoming community, we have to understand that there are many more readers than there are authors, and the impression we make on them matters too.  Responding negatively, no matter how humorously, is not going to improve the group.  It might amuse the regulars, but it is not building a strong and welcoming community.  I also happen to think that responding negatively won't even achieve its stated purpose of making the help-vampire go away.

--Ned.
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