Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!xlned.com!feeder1.xlned.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.006 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'python.': 0.02; 'cache': 0.05; 'frameworks': 0.05; 'url:bitbucket': 0.05; 'dependency': 0.07; 'seemed': 0.07; 'welcome.': 0.07; 'python': 0.09; 'already.': 0.09; 'cherrypy,': 0.09; 'django,': 0.09; 'metrics': 0.09; 'turbogears,': 0.09; 'anyway': 0.11; 'template': 0.11; 'applies': 0.15; '+0300': 0.16; 'caching': 0.16; 'correlation': 0.16; 'disk.': 0.16; 'gonna': 0.16; 'how,': 0.16; 'pep8': 0.16; 'refactoring': 0.16; 'scientist': 0.16; 'strange,': 0.16; 'url:packages': 0.16; 'wed,': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.17; '(or': 0.18; 'code.': 0.20; 'discussion': 0.20; 'to:name:python- list@python.org': 0.20; 'skip:- 40': 0.21; 'trying': 0.21; 'thanks.': 0.21; '(you': 0.23; 'installed': 0.23; 'to:2**1': 0.23; 'seems': 0.23; 'tried': 0.25; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.25; 'language.': 0.27; 'authors': 0.27; 'run': 0.28; 'gather': 0.29; 'measure': 0.29; 'served': 0.29; 'date:': 0.29; 'url:mailman': 0.29; 'points': 0.29; 'source': 0.29; 'this.': 0.29; "i'm": 0.29; 'install': 0.29; 'maybe': 0.29; 'url:2012': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; 'point': 0.31; 'url:python': 0.32; 'file': 0.32; 'could': 0.32; 'url:listinfo': 0.32; 'comments': 0.33; 'from:addr:live.com': 0.33; 'right?': 0.33; 'turns': 0.33; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.33; 'recommended': 0.33; 'another': 0.33; 'version': 0.34; "can't": 0.34; 'project': 0.34; 'list': 0.35; 'nov': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; 'subject:': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'email addr:python.org': 0.36; 'thank': 0.36; 'too': 0.36; 'author': 0.37; 'beyond': 0.37; 'does': 0.37; 'level': 0.37; 'uses': 0.37; 'subject:: ': 0.38; 'from:': 0.38; 'fact': 0.38; 'mean': 0.38; 'things': 0.38; 'sure': 0.38; 'performance': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'takes': 0.39; 'application': 0.40; 'url:mail': 0.40; 'your': 0.60; "you'll": 0.62; 'here:': 0.62; 'interest': 0.62; 'email name:python-list': 0.62; 'between': 0.63; 'different': 0.63; 'skip:n 10': 0.63; 'more': 0.63; 'url:blogspot': 0.64; 'making': 0.64; 'here': 0.65; 'results': 0.65; 'url:10': 0.65; 'market': 0.66; 'social': 0.69; 'car': 0.69; 'benefit': 0.70; 'lack': 0.71; 'url:11': 0.71; 'benchmark': 0.84; 'complexity': 0.84; 'email addr:lavabit.com': 0.84; 'excessive': 0.84; 'problems?': 0.84; 'comment.': 0.91; 'relate': 0.91; 'url:template': 0.91; 'url:tutorial': 0.93; 'imagine': 0.96; 'charset:windows-1251': 0.97; 'serious': 0.98 X-Originating-IP: [213.130.16.2] X-EIP: [NDYMuFHORJkt9xmz0UIiA71CuhuYCgSG] X-Originating-Email: [andriy.kornatskyy@live.com] From: Andriy Kornatskyy To: , "python-list@python.org" Subject: RE: Web Frameworks Excessive Complexity Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:23:32 +0300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20121121094939.2be7ebf0809c1959538f8166@lavabit.com> References: , <20121121094939.2be7ebf0809c1959538f8166@lavabit.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Nov 2012 18:23:33.0035 (UTC) FILETIME=[504797B0:01CDC815] X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 109 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1353522281 news.xs4all.nl 6901 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:56686 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:33755 Richard=2C Thank you for the comment. I have examined web frameworks for PEP8 and CC metrics already. Results are= here: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-pep8-consistency.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/11/python-web-excessive-complexity.html Same applies to performance benchmarks: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/09/python-fastest-web-framework.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-routing-benchmark.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-reverse-urls-benchmark.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-web-caching-benchmark.html and template engine related: http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/10/python-templates-benchmark.html http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/07/python-fastest-template.html If there are any other metrics we can gather automatically I will be happy = to run them. Thank you for your interest of wheezy.web. Before you buy: Demo application source: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/template Demo application live: http://wheezy.pythonanywhere.com/ Tutorial: http://packages.python.org/wheezy.web/tutorial.html Finished: https://bitbucket.org/akorn/wheezy.web/src/tip/demos/guestbook Try understand what is cache dependency and how you benefit of using it wit= h content caching. Try relate it with web caching benchmark from above and = imagine 99% of your web application content is served out from cache=2C eve= n it is dynamic (you control content cache with cache dependency). Thanks. Andriy Kornatskyy ---------------------------------------- > To: python-list@python.org > From: richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com > Subject: Re: Web Frameworks Excessive Complexity > Date: Wed=2C 21 Nov 2012 09:49:39 -0800 > > On Tue=2C 20 Nov 2012 20:41:42 +0300 > Andriy Kornatskyy wrote: > > > > > Cyclomatic (or conditional) complexity is a metric used to indicate > > the complexity of a source code. Excessive complexity is something > > that is beyond recommended level of 10 (threshold that points to the > > fact the source code is too complex and refactoring is suggested). > > Here is a list of web frameworks examined: bottle=2C cherrypy=2C > > circuits=2C django=2C flask=2C pyramid=2C pysi=2C tornado=2C turbogears= =2C web.py=2C > > web2py and wheezy.web. > > > > You can read more here: > > > > http://mindref.blogspot.com/2012/11/python-web-excessive-complexity.htm= l > > You are the author of wheezy.web right? Can't blame you for trying to > market your product. The conclusions=2C or lack of=2C are meaningless to = me. > I have to get in and drive the car before I go all in and buy it. > > I'm looking at different technology right now on which to base a site. > I tried pyramid and after install it consumed 92MB of disk. It seemed > large and it turns out that it installed its own version of python. > Seems more complex to me=2C yet another python on disk. > > Anyway if you're really serious about making a point that complexity > matters you'll have to measure many more things than loc or cc. > > Did you look at the number of commits to the same file over time? > Etc. Number of authors for same file? Etc.=2C etc. Number of security > fixes? There must be a correlation between complexity and insecurity. > Maybe check for randomness of the code. Not sure how=2C maybe > look for strange=2C non-idiomatic uses of the language. > > I'm no computer scientist and I'm sure there are volumes on all this. > > Then there's also the social side=2C how much discussion takes place > about the software? Does more discussion mean more problems? > More project vibrancy? You could check for vocab=2C etc. > > I'm gonna take a look at wheezy.web. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Comments or suggestions are welcome. > > > > Andriy Kornatskyy > > > > > -- > > > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list =