Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!usenet.pasdenom.info!aioe.org!feeder.news-service.com!tudelft.nl!txtfeed1.tudelft.nl!multikabel.net!newsfeed20.multikabel.net!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.003 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'python,': 0.01; 'guido': 0.04; 'expansion': 0.05; 'switched': 0.07; 'python': 0.07; 'later)': 0.09; 'pm,': 0.11; 'c++': 0.12; 'output': 0.12; 'wrote:': 0.14; "'get": 0.16; "(can't": 0.16; '*very*': 0.16; 'arithmetic,': 0.16; 'input,': 0.16; 'lisp': 0.16; 'rossum': 0.16; "student's": 0.16; 'subsequent': 0.16; 'math': 0.16; 'language,': 0.18; 'this?': 0.18; 'shell': 0.19; 'java,': 0.20; 'language': 0.20; 'programming': 0.20; 'subject:list': 0.22; 'header:In-Reply- To:1': 0.22; "aren't": 0.22; 'trying': 0.23; 'introductory': 0.23; 'typically': 0.24; 'wonder': 0.24; 'point,': 0.25; 'received:209.85.161.46': 0.26; 'received:mail- fx0-f46.google.com': 0.26; 'classes': 0.26; 'van': 0.27; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.28; 'received:209.85.161': 0.29; 'fri,': 0.29; 'probably': 0.30; 'least': 0.30; 'grasp': 0.31; 'logic': 0.31; 'one)': 0.31; 'vast': 0.31; 'functional': 0.31; 'to:addr :python-list': 0.32; 'pure': 0.33; 'wanting': 0.33; 'actually': 0.34; 'but,': 0.35; 'concepts': 0.35; 'kids': 0.35; 'couple': 0.35; 'point': 0.35; 'think': 0.36; 'some': 0.37; 'received:209.85': 0.37; 'received:google.com': 0.38; 'but': 0.38; 'used': 0.38; 'majority': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'comes': 0.39; 'received:209': 0.39; 'said': 0.39; 'basic': 0.40; 'would': 0.40; "it's": 0.40; 'header:Received:5': 0.40; 'necessarily': 0.40; '13,': 0.60; 'learn': 0.60; 'course.': 0.60; 'best': 0.60; 'road': 0.61; 'give': 0.61; '2011': 0.62; 'remember': 0.65; 'taught': 0.65; 'scheme.': 0.68; 'today': 0.70; 'hand,': 0.72; "'first'": 0.84; 'break.': 0.84; 'hugs': 0.84; '\xa0but': 0.84; 'schools': 0.93 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZgrKD82nloNdkUb+eRkkzGi37eusC79ktCdJrdxOU9M=; b=s+GQ89uG8uIYBytDtZ46GREdme0Av3/pwjhQZKsIkwpEmwqcTopKFb5n8CeXsUluXb q8XTzVV8OhS+rbCSLon7oUBxjFNrSQVqeBUtqht1fozlnQTFYeFHmd6SUDys+d3sntnu TAmN+B1z048s0qxVkhaSQqHROebfUzuhsb0PM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JC/wbYEnS5kopOlUZBuSEXuzR6ppRf06wUEdB/S82awKVHoxdN3RNeqeV6eGYtd2hC FcRQTfhhMOj5wZv8ziPPJyTht45XFS19Mtw41J54O04qCcQmaGtzqUbbsZKjWl6Nwn8g DDxGXvnD93SZtZDlcYKq4mOAwPhnzQ1wssnDU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9hYwp.5805$xo2.3333@newsfe07.iad> <4dc502c7$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <8354770a-d69d-4132-b0ba-2d610eab2fe7@d26g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <4dcb7a8d$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <25a7c6d9-5d60-4528-8eaf-e6d0e73dfd1d@17g2000prr.googlegroups.com> From: Ian Kelly Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 14:21:49 -0600 Subject: Re: checking if a list is empty To: Python Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.94.164.166 X-Trace: 1305318141 news.xs4all.nl 81482 [::ffff:82.94.164.166]:54057 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:5324 On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 1:41 PM, harrismh777 wrot= e: > On the other hand, kids today are dumped into a first comp sci course in > programming and plopped in-front of a Hugs interactive shell and then are > expected to learn programming and be successful by trying to grasp pure > functional programming in Haskell(!) in a ten to 12 week term and we wond= er > why so many students are failing their 'first' programming class!! =A0Giv= e me > a break. =A0No, give them a break. Well, at least Haskell is probably better as an introductory language than Lisp or Scheme. But what schools actually do this? My perception is that the vast majority of schools use C++ or C# or Java, typically relegating functional programming to a single second- or third-year course. Of course it's well known that MIT used to use Scheme, but they switched to Python a couple years ago. > Guido van Rossum has said in one of his interviews (can't remember now wh= ich > one) that BASIC is a terrible first computer language... and I agree... b= ut, > it was a lot better than Hugs! =A0But that's not my point, my point is th= at > Python is better still. =A0Why? =A0Because Python can be taught at a *ver= y* > rudimentary level ( input, control, arithmetic, logic and output ) in alm= ost > a BASIC or REXX procedural style -- top down -- so that students 'get it'= . > Then, in subsequent classes down the road (much later) Python can grow an= d > expand with the student's re-conditioning for more in-depth expansion of > concepts and knowledge. I don't think a single language is necessarily going to be best for all students. If a math major comes to you wanting to learn some programming for theorem-proving, bearing in mind that they probably aren't interested in learning more than a single language, would you try to start them out with Python, or would you just give them the functional language that they're ultimately going to want?