Path: csiph.com!news.swapon.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail From: Mark Lawrence Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Subject: Re: Explaining names vs variables in Python Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 16:09:19 +0000 Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <56d6ac61$0$23633$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk> <56d6c146$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87y4a1t5wj.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87twkpt2w7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87povdt1ec.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <56d7218c$0$1587$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <56d79c06$0$1617$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de zB9wRQyZAO/OwPZkaaVRYA95bZdn1U0lsRRkY+rymxDg== Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.002 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.05; 'from:addr:yahoo.co.uk': 0.05; 'english,': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'semantics': 0.09; 'variants': 0.09; 'python': 0.10; '"this': 0.13; 'thu,': 0.15; 'value.': 0.15; '"is"': 0.16; '"object': 0.16; '2016': 0.16; 'definition.': 0.16; 'identity:': 0.16; 'inverse': 0.16; 'irregular': 0.16; 'operator.': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:io': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'received:psf.io': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; 'circular': 0.18; 'language': 0.19; '>>>': 0.20; 'lawrence': 0.22; 'object.': 0.22; 'oriented': 0.22; 'am,': 0.23; 'words': 0.24; 'written': 0.24; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.24; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.26; 'sense': 0.26; 'define': 0.27; 'question': 0.27; 'tend': 0.27; 'then.': 0.27; '(although': 0.29; 'operators': 0.29; 'yields': 0.29; 'url:wiki': 0.30; 'e.g.': 0.30; 'rules': 0.31; 'language.': 0.32; 'url:python': 0.33; 'common': 0.33; "d'aprano": 0.33; 'steven': 0.33; 'case,': 0.34; 'identity': 0.35; 'stable': 0.35; 'sometimes': 0.35; 'there': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'possible': 0.36; 'form,': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'received:org': 0.37; 'missing': 0.37; 'test': 0.39; 'url:en': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.40; 'mark': 0.40; 'some': 0.40; 'url:3': 0.60; 'back': 0.62; 'charset:windows-1252': 0.62; 'our': 0.64; 'mar': 0.65; 'differences': 0.66; 'us,': 0.69; 'truth': 0.79; 'african,': 0.84; 'bloody': 0.84; 'obeyed': 0.84; "op's": 0.84; 'pythonistas,': 0.84; 'carries': 0.91; 'url:reference': 0.91; 'mystery': 0.95 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.234.182.166 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 In-Reply-To: <56d79c06$0$1617$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:103971 On 03/03/2016 02:05, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:49 am, Mark Lawrence wrote: > >> On 02/03/2016 17:23, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 01:11 am, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >>> >>>> What is missing is the rules that are obeyed by the "is" operator. >>> >>> I think what is actually missing is some common bloody sense. The Python >>> docs are written in English, and don't define *hundreds*, possible >>> *thousands* of words because they are using their normal English meaning. >>> >>> The docs for `is` say: >>> >>> 6.10.3. Identity comparisons >>> >>> The operators is and is not test for object identity: x is y is true if >>> and only if x and y are the same object. x is not y yields the inverse >>> truth value. >>> >>> https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#is-not >>> >>> In this case, "same object" carries the normal English meaning of "same" >>> and the normal computer science meaning of "object" in the sense of >>> "Object Oriented Programming". There's no mystery here, no circular >>> definition. >>> >> >> Are we discussing UK (highly generalised), Geordie, Glaswegian, US, >> Canadian, South African, Australian, New Zealand, or some other form of >> English? > > To the best of my knowledge, `is` has the same meaning in all variants of > English (although there are sometimes differences in grammatical form, > e.g. "this be that" versus "this is that"). It is a very old word, and such > old words tend to have astonishingly stable semantics and irregular > spelling. > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/is#English > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be#English > That's all right then. Perhaps we can now get back to the OP's question and not some bloody stupid philosophical discussion. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence