Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!xlned.com!feeder1.xlned.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.015 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.97; '*S*': 0.00; 'argument': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'affected': 0.07; 'variables': 0.07; 'from:addr:ethan': 0.09; 'from:addr:stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'from:name:ethan furman': 0.09; 'message-id:@stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'statements': 0.09; '~ethan~': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; 'changes': 0.15; '.py': 0.16; 'argument.': 0.16; 'immutable,': 0.16; 'mutable': 0.16; 'unexpected': 0.16; 'thursday,': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'thu,': 0.19; '(the': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'print': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'copied': 0.24; 'header:In- Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'function': 0.29; 'chris': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; 'waste': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; 'ones.': 0.31; 'question:': 0.31; 'sep': 0.31; 'know.': 0.32; 'actual': 0.34; 'core': 0.34; 'could': 0.34; 'there': 0.35; 'introducing': 0.36; 'charset:us-ascii': 0.36; 'being': 0.38; 'minimum': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'files': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'recent': 0.39; 'functional': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'most': 0.60; 'received:173': 0.61; 'our': 0.64; 'here': 0.66; 'side': 0.67; 'skip:w 40': 0.68; 'therefore': 0.72; 'bare': 0.84; 'effects,': 0.84; 'facilitating': 0.84; 'hours)': 0.84; 'nonsense.': 0.84; 'preventing': 0.84; 'reliability': 0.84; 'divided': 0.91; 'effects.': 0.91; 'reasoning': 0.91 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 21:06:45 -0700 From: Ethan Furman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121010 Thunderbird/16.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Python is going to be hard References: <51acfec6-6b7b-4773-8d70-0360381bbed1@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1409803608 news.xs4all.nl 2846 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:48849 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:77529 On 09/03/2014 08:22 PM, Rustom Mody wrote: > On Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:26:56 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: >>>>>> NO PRINT > >> Yes, or the OP could work with actual saved .py files and the >> reliability that comes from predictable execution environments... and >> use print. Why are you so dead against print? > > Here is the most recent (2013) ACM/IEEE CS curriculum: > www.acm.org/education/CS2013-final-report.pdf > > It is divided into tiers with core-tier1 being the bare minimum that > all CS graduate need to know. > > One of (the many!) things there is this (pg 158) > > | Functional Programming (3 Core-Tier1 hours) > > | Effect-free programming > | -- Function calls have no side effects, facilitating compositional reasoning Lots of Python functions have side effects. > | -- Variables are immutable, preventing unexpected changes to program data by other code Lots of Python core data types are mutable. > | -- Data can be freely aliased or copied without introducing unintended effects from mutation Every mutable Python data type that is aliased can be affected by unintended mutational effects -- as well as intentional ones. > So to answer your question: print statements are side-effecting and therefore obstruct > compositional reasoning. Ridiculous argument after ridiculous argument. Please do not waste our time with nonsense. -- ~Ethan~