Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed5.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'languages,': 0.03; 'preferably': 0.03; 'python.': 0.04; '(python': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'c++,': 0.07; 'framework.': 0.07; 'mess': 0.07; 'received:verizon.net': 0.07; 'terry': 0.07; 'versions.': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; '(general': 0.09; 'counting': 0.09; 'frameworks.': 0.09; 'garbage': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229.12': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'received:lo.gmane.org': 0.09; 'c++': 0.12; 'gui': 0.13; 'wrote:': 0.15; 'library': 0.15; '(he': 0.16; 'bindings': 0.16; 'different,': 0.16; 'gil.': 0.16; 'java.': 0.16; 'jython).': 0.16; 'reedy': 0.16; 'subject:GUI': 0.16; 'suitable.': 0.16; 'threading': 0.16; 'pm,': 0.16; 'question.': 0.16; 'written': 0.17; 'jan': 0.19; 'memory': 0.21; 'described': 0.22; 'extension': 0.22; 'loop': 0.22; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.22; 'releasing': 0.23; 'smart': 0.23; 'code': 0.24; 'greg': 0.25; 'says': 0.25; 'up.': 0.26; 'objects': 0.28; '---': 0.30; 'project?': 0.30; 'toolkit': 0.30; 'references': 0.32; 'list': 0.32; 'does': 0.32; 'reference': 0.33; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.34; 'header:X -Complaints-To:1': 0.34; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.34; 'reasons': 0.34; 'etc.)': 0.34; 'things': 0.34; 'project': 0.35; 'be,': 0.35; 'ownership': 0.35; 'with.': 0.36; 'thread': 0.37; 'model': 0.37; 'but': 0.37; 'received:org': 0.38; 'subject:: ': 0.38; 'something': 0.38; 'think': 0.38; 'else': 0.38; 'should': 0.39; 'processing': 0.39; 'header:Mime-Version:1': 0.39; 'help': 0.39; 'subject:with': 0.39; 'event': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'might': 0.39; 'needed.': 0.40; 'die': 0.61; 'projects': 0.62; 'apps': 0.63; 'designed': 0.63; 'license,': 0.84; 'management:': 0.84; 'momentum': 0.84; 'pyjamas': 0.84; 'them:': 0.84; 'widgets:': 0.84; 'direction,': 0.91; 'interest,': 0.91; 'lean': 0.91; 'swing': 0.91 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Terry Reedy Subject: Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:34:50 -0400 References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-74-109-121-73.phlapa.fios.verizon.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.11 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1311129307 news.xs4all.nl 23932 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:56387 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:9928 On 7/19/2011 10:12 PM, sturlamolden wrote: > What is wrong with them: > > 1. Designed for other languages, particularly C++, tcl and Java. > > 2. Bloatware. Qt and wxWidgets are C++ application frameworks. (Python > has a standard library!) > > 3. Unpythonic memory management: Python references to deleted C++ > objects (PyQt). Manual dialog destruction (wxPython). Parent-child > ownership might be smart in C++, but in Python we have a garbage > collector. > > 4. They might look bad (Tkinter, Swing with Jython). > > 5. All projects to write a Python GUI toolkit die before they are > finished. (General lack of interest, bindings for Qt or wxWidgets > bloatware are mature, momentum for web development etc.) Greg Ewing's pygui project is still going and releasing new versions. > How I would prefer the GUI library to be, if based on "native" > widgets: > > 1. Lean and mean -- do nothing but GUI. No database API, networking > API, threading API, etc. > > 2. Do as much processing in Python as possible. No more native code > (C, C++, Cython) than needed. > > 3. Instances of extension types can clean themselves up on > deallocation. No parent-child ownership model to mess things up. No > manual clean-up. Python does all the reference counting we need. > > 4. No artist framework. Use OpenGL, Cairo, AGG or whatever else is > suitable. > > 5. No particular GUI thread synchronization is needed -- Python has a > GIL. > > 6. Expose the event loop to Python. > > 7. Preferably BSD-style license, not even LGPL. > > 8. Written for Python in Python -- not bindings for a C++ or tcl > toolkit. I think you described pygui. > Is it worth the hassle to start a new GUI toolkit project? Ask Greg what you might help with. > Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely > different, such as HTML5? An interesting question. I think the pyjamas project is aimed in this direction, but the author says he will never port to Py3. (He explained his reasons on this list when I suggested that.) --- Terry Jan Reedy