Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.albasani.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path: <rosuav@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: python-list@python.org
Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000
X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; '16,': 0.03; 'say,': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'debugging': 0.07; 'string': 0.09; 'ascii': 0.09; 'assumed': 0.09; 'expense': 0.09; 'occasionally': 0.09; 'oh,': 0.09; 'pretend': 0.09; 'yeah,': 0.09; 'cc:addr :python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'language,': 0.12; 'wrote': 0.14; 'language.': 0.14; '"python': 0.16; 'bugs.': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'guilty': 0.16; 'idiocy': 0.16; 'libraries.': 0.16; 'magic': 0.16; 'matters,': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'fix': 0.17; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; 'coding': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'stick': 0.24; 'unicode': 0.24; 'initial': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'handling': 0.26; 'post': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; "we'd": 0.29; 'words': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'work.': 0.31; 'code': 0.31; 'easier': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'forces': 0.31; 'python"': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'another': 0.32; 'text': 0.33; 'guess': 0.33; 'third': 0.33; "i'd": 0.34; 'something': 0.35; 'test': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; 'much.': 0.36; 'problems': 0.38; 'somebody': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'does': 0.39; 'extremely': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'new': 0.61; 'matter': 0.61; 'our': 0.64; 'pick': 0.64; 'different': 0.65; 'incoming': 0.72; 'jul': 0.74; 'discover': 0.82; 'causes.': 0.84; 'characters,': 0.84; 'killing': 0.84; 'to:none': 0.92
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=oaAzLvWsGM+xGZucktCjiXgA7LSq11vyGHucMjrlRZs=; b=H3S41u6J0ympnz2OU2pDXg6TJ5b1D+/D8WmD+YK0Y41PGgeZRcN0TYQSwfJpIeZYdA zJLq4XoqOMDVNzf0ipD76Xcg7/rhf/1H/mNYSnSt8pxy9gp4t1wvIq1bxj7inWkf5Cid mKz9YpB7LuvrSeyFebM8ef+s7hPSyUwkFwTbIV1UGPF/M/zS8/pmg04ANwgG0SGWo7H9 LCyXqNPGFIUhmS+kfU3jigpVGMx/3cbYekt/LTyme+HrVO4Ak2FSctl0TF2CAhQwUFM4 2ZGhsAqXs5uFEGiMV/eZacyxAdnnzELHDzFPqKo5Ch74iwskRmD71EtH+2M/wjQmoNO2 HYYQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.220.195.67 with SMTP id eb3mr10710402vcb.30.1405484437211; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <53c5f6dc$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.10416.1401304999.18130.python-list@python.org> <57ajo9poljjre4c4ig0n0ss8kph8k78lp0@4ax.com> <5389cb53$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <99b7b2a2-7521-42d7-a5a0-1a35d4d5b922@googlegroups.com> <53C4A454.9010600@gmail.com> <mailman.11826.1405398039.18130.python-list@python.org> <lq365f$4c9$1@speranza.aioe.org> <mailman.11836.1405429260.18130.python-list@python.org> <lq3bvu$ob4$1@dont-email.me> <mailman.11838.1405434699.18130.python-list@python.org> <87zjga4j4v.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <53c57bae$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87iomy4ciy.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <53c5f6dc$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:20:37 +1000
Subject: Re: Python 3 is killing Python
From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Cc: "python-list@python.org" <python-list@python.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post: <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help: <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <mailman.11861.1405484445.18130.python-list@python.org>
Lines: 32
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace: 1405484445 news.xs4all.nl 2939 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:39548
X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:74530

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Perhaps the *stupidest* thing the author of the "Python 3 is killing
> Python" blog post wrote was that it's easier to port Python code to a
> *completely different language*. I cannot fathom the idiocy of somebody
> who bitches and moans that having to re-write or redesign, oh, let's
> conservatively say 5% of your Python 2 code is harder than writing your
> code *completely from scratch* in a completely different language, with
> completely different third party libraries.

There's only one way that it's easier to port to a completely new
language. Pick another language where string handling is as naive as
my last boss (who told me to make sure that my code was "eight-bit
clean, that is to say, Unicode safe", and used the words "Unicode" and
"UTF-8" as synonymous), and then you can continue to stick your head
in the sand and pretend that ASCII is what matters, that "special
characters" work because of the magic of UTF-8, and that oh, yeah, I
guess we'd better occasionally test our code with a few of those
annoyingly different characters, but ehh, it doesn't really matter
much.

Having been guilty of something like that (actually, in one program I
assumed all the incoming text was CP-1252, so it really *was*
byte==char), I am extremely aware of the problems that it causes. But
it does make initial coding a lot easier - at the expense of debugging
later, when you discover that some things don't work. The Py3 approach
forces you to fix things up-front, and that's hard! But then there are
no bugs.

I know which one I'd rather.

ChrisA