Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.041 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.92; '*S*': 0.00; 'plenty': 0.07; 'expectation': 0.09; 'obey': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'itself.': 0.14; 'comparisons,': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'nans': 0.16; 'subject:operators': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; '(not': 0.18; 'have:': 0.19; 'rules': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'instance,': 0.24; 'laws': 0.24; 'mathematical': 0.24; 'url:02': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'mention': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'point': 0.28; 'am,': 0.29; 'compared': 0.30; 'nature': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; '13,': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'equality': 0.31; 'idea,': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'url:06': 0.31; 'supposed': 0.32; 'problem': 0.35; 'problem.': 0.35; 'equal': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'thanks': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'positive': 0.37; 'two': 0.37; 'rather': 0.38; 'bad': 0.39; 'number,': 0.60; 'numbers': 0.61; "you're": 0.61; 'hear': 0.63; 'real': 0.63; 'such': 0.63; 'skip:n 10': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'jul': 0.74; 'generous,': 0.84; 'calculus': 0.91; 'subject:Proposal': 0.91; 'to:none': 0.92 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=a+84wlJ93j2vzN+C3heFoFcZA6FuOJCYpZ24Hm9EpKw=; b=lY891bHGOkJP9TR7Mvk0FxrFHp2seKIaXhG43vjxpRneWRCgZdVj9Fue4j3T4SR9/k adtmHxV1kDNWRJ9/Sww9XiSGIR+4LAjPq2rPhU17fD3pPwxLKf5CkUsLz2gWKkEwDeFl Lj4ZyK4zwBsu4++jGZDZeHPx5jouju/OrA0uiu3x5q8pKSLocyhaoPmBM1NYTx/HVkzB Tdtke9BVChKGeIKuXZDPIbnRNgly1xfRiEoYqnAT6SY1G+mMaB02uhiyAeF3n1ylClMv Xy6q/HDXmtIe6y+QVBAcyrvQm80eZgR/9zCQsknuS0RSXHCnV9JtFAIsiKd64ib6XMQB cdgQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.149.170 with SMTP id ub10mr6426608veb.0.1405184085003; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:54:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53c163ba$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <53bce8a3$0$2746$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <53bd08b4$0$2746$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <53c163ba$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:54:44 +1000 Subject: Re: Proposal: === and !=== operators From: Chris Angelico Cc: "python-list@python.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1405184093 news.xs4all.nl 2833 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:74385 On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > You're not going to hear me arguing that the non-reflexivity of NANs and > SQL NULL is a bad idea, although some very smart people have: > > http://bertrandmeyer.com/2010/02/06/reflexivity-and-other-pillars-of-civilization/ > > Mathematical equality is reflexive. It is fundamental to the nature of > numbers and equality that a number is always equal to itself. To the > degree that floats are supposed to model real numbers, they should obey > the same laws of real numbers. However, they already fail to obey them, > so the failure of reflexivity is just one more problem that makes > floating point such a hard problem. Compared to floating point > arithmetic, calculus is easy. > And there are plenty of other laws of real numbers that floats violate (or, let's be generous, "approximate to rather than following perfectly"). For instance, adding two positive (non-zero) numbers should result in a number which is greater than either, but thanks to rounding, that's not always true. (Not to mention that "infinity" isn't a number, but it is a floating-point value.) The problem is not equality comparisons, the problem is the expectation that the rules of reals apply to floats. ChrisA