Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed5.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.029 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.94; '*S*': 0.00; 'interpreter': 0.07; 'subject:Python': 0.07; '"in': 0.09; 'chunk': 0.09; 'compiler': 0.09; 'context': 0.09; 'degree,': 0.09; 'subject:Number': 0.09; 'sucking': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.15; '(read': 0.16; 'abstraction': 0.16; 'backwards': 0.16; 'breathe': 0.16; 'experiment.': 0.16; 'pushing': 0.16; 'runs.': 0.16; 'to:addr:pearwood.info': 0.16; 'to:addr:steve+comp.lang.python': 0.16; "to:name:steven d'aprano": 0.16; 'tradition': 0.16; 'mechanism': 0.18; 'programming': 0.21; 'languages.': 0.22; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.22; 'ignore': 0.24; 'written': 0.24; '(which': 0.24; 'cc:no real name:2**0': 0.26; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.27; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.27; 'development.': 0.27; 'interpreted': 0.29; 'subject: [': 0.29; 'suspect': 0.29; 'tree': 0.29; 'file': 0.29; 'machine': 0.29; 'up.': 0.30; "doesn't": 0.30; 'cc:2**0': 0.31; 'received:209.85': 0.32; 'tool': 0.32; 'towards': 0.32; 'received:google.com': 0.32; 'throughout': 0.32; 'could': 0.34; 'problem': 0.34; 'architecture': 0.34; 'received:209': 0.35; 'point': 0.35; '(from': 0.35; 'actually': 0.35; 'why': 0.36; 'far': 0.36; 'project': 0.36; 'does': 0.36; 'some': 0.37; 'think': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'long': 0.40; 'your': 0.60; "here's": 0.61; 'such': 0.61; 'management': 0.63; 'further': 0.64; 'our': 0.64; 'different': 0.65; 'high': 0.65; 'world': 0.65; 'personal': 0.65; 'hope': 0.65; 'generates': 0.66; 'here': 0.66; 'viewed': 0.72; 'forth': 0.76; 'context,': 0.84; 'contiguous': 0.84; 'existed': 0.84; 'mistaken': 0.84; 'worth,': 0.84; 'hostile': 0.91; 'identity.': 0.91; 'joel': 0.91; 'many,': 0.91 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=f/2Bx3XTom378tqwnV+DSZq90HT08RtQsJGLyFjDTL4=; b=nLrpT6Qil0Bv+49MrZu6N9K1VcmBydq+wAF8aCwEi/mzN9bmMWlzXk1P+qJtn3ylZf xRrsay9m5WyxPBx3tGleikdejOLaIsth8im4uhH4kgMHxLLWxQaDwhVHK282luNt0JQx YyiFo8P+g+Iuxsg2/wtU49BCn92InYQTjKEwsDYkhb8+ypHqfREPyIIrjnIgRZpBjDIb ONwvusNEJeLwW+0OnLa2ifpbvRTQ6a6Bx1jwftSE4OmJWdb0CMu8stvkna0x1lqeiymg 67YltEIpbyksWxdvbV9Qey0wDIC/HeQIA+iYqbshyQILYjQNJo6t59+OXHRBWSwlTYl4 LGMg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4f7512db$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <4f7512db$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:37:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] - somewhat OT From: Nathan Rice To: "Steven D'Aprano" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: python-list@python.org X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1333085828 news.xs4all.nl 6914 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:52793 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:22376 >> Here's a thought experiment. =A0Imagine that you have a project tree on >> your file system which includes files written in many different >> programming languages. =A0Imagine that the files can be assumed to be >> contiguous for our purposes, so you could view all the files in the >> project as one long chunk of data. =A0The directory and file names could >> be interpreted as statements in this data, analogous to "in the context >> of somedirectory" or "in the context of somefile with sometype". =A0Any >> project configuration files could be viewed as declarative statements >> about contexts, such as "in xyz context, ignore those" or "in abc >> context, any that is actually a this". =A0Imagine the compiler or >> interpreter is actually part of your program (which is reasonable since >> it doesn't do anything by itself). =A0Imagine the build management tool = is >> also part of your program in pretty much the same manner. =A0Imagine tha= t >> your program actually generates another program that will generate the >> program the machine runs. =A0I hope you can follow me here, and further = I >> hope you can see that this is a completely valid description of what is >> actually going on (from a different perspective). > [...] >> What does pushing the abstraction point that far up provide? > > I see why you are so hostile towards Joel Spolsky's criticism of > Architecture Astronauts: you are one of them. Sorry Nathan, I don't know > how you breathe that high up. > > For what it's worth, your image of "everything from the compiler on up is > part of your program" describes both Forth and Hypercard to some degree, > both of which I have used and like very much. I still think you're > sucking vacuum :( We live in a world where the tools that are used are based on tradition (read that as backwards compatibility if it makes you feel better) and as a mechanism for deriving personal identity. The world is backwards and retarded in many, many ways, this problem is interesting to me because it actually cuts across a much larger tract than is immediately obvious. People throughout history have had the mistaken impression that the world as it existed for them was the pinnacle of human development. Clearly all of those people were tragically deluded, and I suspect that is the case here as well.