Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.011 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; '16,': 0.03; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'conventions': 0.07; 'encouraging': 0.07; 'high-profile': 0.09; 'psf.': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'random': 0.14; 'language?': 0.16; 'naming': 0.16; 'naming,': 0.16; 'neutral': 0.16; 'publicly,': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; "python's": 0.19; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'subject:community': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'see,': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'along': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; '"do': 0.31; 'apparently': 0.31; 'quite': 0.32; 'subject:the': 0.34; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'are,': 0.36; 'chair': 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'wrong': 0.37; 'project': 0.37; 'problems': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'called': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'you.': 0.62; 'kind': 0.63; 'skip:n 10': 0.64; 'url:blogspot': 0.65; 'social': 0.69; 'url:2011': 0.75; 'biases': 0.84; 'racism,': 0.84; 'yelling': 0.84; 'thing,': 0.91; 'army': 0.95; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=jZeIX0Ny2vjtRrMpc8MJHSUYSDliWpNSp2317grzNZY=; b=u50oDidDxy6q1K0u2iyI93Nqplunpb2Iqob52YV3hcI2l0zULl2BVq6y/TlmcmGsMN rh4Ce6FZB0IB7wulfQSarpDQ6uKwInIFo5yDxpCoR6kO1LVx0YXiSur05hxU5rt90s0X +fp1b+3/PaYnuUECK2kIFUUjgyWcVAwe0aKmKPeyQEmkJ5tei/6dhY6IKs+mLO0QK8yo KMIw5hBcBi36Jq+wb8JDIQ3GVCWo1zTLj1pIPcG/cp2UquDArMCSuuX2p5q74DIq08yn OfLVFw8we01joVqYDbreyALtjx/C47pLSlhDWGgele3yLXZaL8W3t4QG0UBYkv1bncnh O1yg== X-Received: by 10.58.161.231 with SMTP id xv7mr5266123veb.2.1381984392352; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 21:33:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca> References: <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca> From: Devin Jeanpierre Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 21:32:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it? To: Owen Jacobson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: "comp.lang.python" X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1381984400 news.xs4all.nl 15936 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:45057 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:56932 On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote: -snip- > 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of > community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for > naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary > behaviour? If some random dolt names their project "nazi_kill_gays.py" or some other clearly wrong thing, and I don't notice it, I'm not "tolerating" it. That standard is clearly absurd. Nor am I encouraging it. The word "encourage" is not a synonym for "do not punish". As you can see, there is no "convention" encouraging sexist, racist, or otherwise exclusionary naming schemes. > 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's > package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some > high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we > apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? The social pressure is that you get called a childish and immature hooligan, publicly, by the chair of the PSF. Along with an army of not-so-famous people yelling at you. It's apparently quite persuasive. http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2011/07/childish-behavior.html Sincerely, -- Devin Jeanpierre