Path: csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <l3hg3g$2hd$1@dont-email.me>
References: <mailman.1046.1381617489.18130.python-list@python.org> <l3hg3g$2hd$1@dont-email.me>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:11:53 +1100
Subject: Re: Python was designed (was Re: Multi-threading in Python vs Java)
From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
To: python-list@python.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Precedence: list
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <mailman.1084.1381792317.18130.python-list@python.org>
Lines: 65
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6
Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:56831

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 6:18 AM, John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> wrote:
>     No, Python went through the usual design screwups.
>     Each of [the below] reflects a design error in the type system which
> had to be corrected.

I'll pick up each one here as I think some of them need further discussion.

> Look at how painful the slow transition to Unicode was,
> from just "str" to Unicode strings, ASCII strings, byte strings, byte
> arrays, 16 and 31 bit character builds, and finally automatic
> switching between rune widths.

I'm not sure what you mean by all of these - I've known Python for
only a (relatively) short time, wasn't there in the 1.x days (much
less the <1.0 days). But according to its history page, the early 1.x
versions of Python predate the widespread adoption of Unicode, so it's
a little unfair to look with 2013 eyes and say that full true Unicode
support should have been there from the start. If anyone invents a
language today that doesn't handle Unicode properly, I would be very
much disappointed; but changing the meaning of quoted string literals
is a pretty major change. I'm just glad it got sorted out for 3.0. As
to the 16/32 bit builds, there aren't actually very many languages
that get this right; Python's now a blazing torch, showing the way for
others to follow. (Pike's had something very similar to PEP 393 for
years, but nobody looks to obscurities.) I hope we'll see other
languages start to follow suit.

> Old-style classes vs. new-style classes.

By the time I started using Python, new-style classes existed and were
the recommended way to do things, so I never got the "feel" for
old-style classes. I assume there was a simplicity to them, since
new-style classes were described as having a performance cost, but one
worth paying. My guess is it comes under the category of "would have
to be omniscient to recognize what would happen"; Steven, maybe you
can fill us in?

> Adding a
> boolean type as an afterthought (that was avoidable; C went through
> that painful transition before Python was created).

I don't know about that. Some languages get by just fine without
dedicated a boolean type. Python didn't have them, then it had them as
integers, now it has them as bools. Is it a major problem? (Apart from
adding them in a point release. That's an admitted mistake.) Python
doesn't have a 'vector' type either, you just use a tuple. Some things
don't need to be in the language, they can be pushed off to the
standard library. And speaking of which...

> Operator "+" as concatenation for built-in arrays but addition
> for NumPy arrays.

... NumPy definitely isn't part of the language. It's not even part of
the standard library, it's fully third-party. The language decrees
that [1,2] + [3,4] = [1,2,3,4], and that custom_object1 +
custom_object2 = custom_object1.__add__(custom_object2) more or less,
and then leaves the implementation of __add__ up to you. Maybe you'll
make an "Entropy" class, where entropy+=int blocks until it's acquired
that much more entropy (maybe from /dev/random), and entropy-int
returns a random number based on its current state. It makes a measure
of sense, if not what you normally would want. You can shoot yourself
in the foot in any language; and if you write something as big and
popular as NumPy, you get to shoot other people in the foot too! :)

ChrisA