Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!xlned.com!feeder5.xlned.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'talks': 0.03; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'binary': 0.07; 'python3': 0.07; 'bytes,': 0.09; 'bytes.': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'strings.': 0.09; 'windows,': 0.09; 'wrapped': 0.09; 'translate': 0.10; 'python': 0.11; 'jan': 0.12; 'systems.': 0.12; 'mostly': 0.14; 'windows': 0.15; '10:45': 0.16; 'alphabet': 0.16; 'macosx': 0.16; 'or)': 0.16; 'programmers,': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'reedy': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'all,': 0.19; 'seems': 0.21; 'input': 0.22; 'saying': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; "shouldn't": 0.24; 'text.': 0.24; 'unicode': 0.24; "world's": 0.24; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.27; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'am,': 0.29; 'strongly': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'subject:some': 0.31; 'universal': 0.31; 'file': 0.32; 'interface': 0.32; 'text': 0.33; 'linux': 0.33; 'everyone': 0.33; 'programmers': 0.33; 'but': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'fact': 0.38; 'received:71': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'consists': 0.60; 'continued': 0.60; 'improved': 0.60; 'different': 0.65; 'great': 0.65; 'wish': 0.70; 'forced': 0.84; 'received:fios.verizon.net': 0.84; 'try.': 0.91 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Terry Reedy Subject: Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:11:46 -0400 References: <538a8f48$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <538bcfff$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <538C5BB8.1020702@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk> <538f1a61$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <53902bb1$0$11109$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <87wqcvu20h.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <7b3543f6-6f62-49c5-abdc-e2783fd6d629@googlegroups.com> <87oay7tnxt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-71-175-90-87.phlapa.fios.verizon.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 In-Reply-To: <87oay7tnxt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1401991925 news.xs4all.nl 2910 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:51437 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:72742 On 6/5/2014 10:45 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Mostly I'm saying Python3 will not be able to hide the fact that linux > data consists of bytes. It shouldn't even try. The linux OS outside the > Python process talks bytes, not strings. A text file is a binary file wrapped with a codex to translate to and from a universal text format on input and output. Much of the time, the wrapping is a great user convenience. Since the wrapping is optional, nothing is forced or really hidden. > A different OS might have different assumptions. Different OSes *do* have different assumptions. Both MacOSX and current Windows use (UCS-2 or) UTF-16 for text. It seems that unicode strings are better than ascii+??? strings as a universal basis for OS interfacing. For Windows, at least, the interface is much improved in Python 3. I understand that some, but not all, Latin alphabet *nix programmers wish that Python 3 continued to be strongly in their favor. But they are a small minority of the world's programmers, and Python 3 is aimed at everyone on all systems. -- Terry Jan Reedy