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Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML??

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  Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Arne Vajhøj" <arne.vajhøj@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this> - 2012-07-29 19:19 +0000
    Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this> - 2012-07-29 19:19 +0000
      Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "jebblue" <jebblue@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this> - 2012-07-30 19:00 +0000
    Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this> - 2012-07-29 19:19 +0000
    Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000
      Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Arne Vajhøj" <arne.vajhøj@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000
        PING Arne Vajhoj - Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "This account has been banned becaus" <this.account.has.been.banned.becaus@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000
      Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Jim Janney" <jim.janney@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000
        Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000
          Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML?? "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-dpk-this> - 2012-07-31 18:02 +0000

#16561 — Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML??

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-5ky-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-z1h-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-nwi-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-10ae-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: Arne Vajhoj <arne@vajhoej.dk>

On 7/26/2012 2:01 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> On 7/26/2012 10:10 AM, Arne Vajhoj wrote:
>> On 7/26/2012 12:36 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
>>> On 7/25/2012 6:00 PM, Arne Vajhoj wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> You were interested to learn the Wirchenko language that just
>>>> happened to be compilable with a Java compiler because it has
>>>> the same grammar.
>>>
>>> The question of whether something is or is not Java seems to me to be
>>> one for which the JLS is indeed the ultimate authority. Can you point
>>> out in some way in which Gene's programs failed to conform to the JLS?
>>
>> If it did not conform to the JLS then hopefully the Java compiler would
>> not compile it.
>>
>> But I assume that the question was rhetorical.You know what I mean, but
>> disagree (which is fine).
>
> I'm not sure I know what you mean. Whether something is Java or not is a
> question of fact, and should be settled by reference to the JLS.
 >
> It may be quite reasonable to decide that you are only willing to
> respond to questions from people who follow conventions you like, but I
> don't think it is reasonable to call something not Java because it does
> not follow those conventions.

Whether some code is valid in the Java language and its semantics are obviously 
defined by the JLS.

But Java comes with a baggage of history, philosophy, traditions and lessons 
learned.

Java developers are not all identical.

If we look at some of the statements made in various threads:
- OOP is just overhead
- patterns are useless
- micro optimizations are good
- public fields are OK
- interfaces are useless
- I don't want to follow the standard naming convention
- I don't want to follow the standard formatting convention
- I don't want to use the Java library because my own is better
- portability is useless
- unit tests are useless
- ORM's are useless
- make is the right build tool for Java
- UML is useles
- Java docs are useless
etc.
then the archetype Java developer would not believe in any of them.

But many Java developers actually believe in a few of them, because people are 
different with different personal experiences and working in different domains. 
And best practices are not an exact science.

Someone believing in most of them is a different story. I am skeptical about 
calling such a person for a Java developer. Even though the code is following 
JLS and compiles with javac, then there is almost no overlap with the Java 
world. It is not the Java way. And if the person tried to write such code at 
work, then the person would be kicked out quickly in many places. It is not 
what companies expect when they hire a Java developer.

People are not born with knowledge about good Java practices. They learn them 
along the way.

I find it natural that people posting problems in cljp are violating some 
common best practices in Java. If they knew everything then they would probably 
not have a problem to post.

I am all for helping them with their problem. And also guiding them towards 
better practices. I do that as well. I don't think I am among the most rigorous 
in that regard though.

If people notice the well meant suggestions and over time adjust, then I am 
happy.

If they chose to ignore the good advice, then I am disappointed but not 
surprised. That is how it is. I don't maintain a black list so I will most 
likely try and help them again - and get disappointed again. But I know that is 
how it is. C'est la vie. And having to maintain the code they end up with is a 
severe punishment in itself!

But there are a few things that get me in flame mode:

1) Complaints from posters that they just want their miserable
    code fixed without any good advice. That is what one can request
    for 250 dollars an hour. If one want free advice, then one has
    to accept the full package of advice.

2) Attempts to recommend the bad practices to other. Either explicit
    or implicit by criticizing when somebody points out the problems
    in some code.

Arne

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#16566

  To: Arne Vajhøj
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-5ky-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-z1h-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-nwi-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-10ae-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>

On 7/26/2012 11:47 AM, Arne Vajhoj wrote: ...
> Someone believing in most of them is a different story. I am skeptical
> about calling such a person for a Java developer. Even though the code
> is following JLS and compiles with javac, then there is almost no
> overlap with the Java world. It is not the Java way. And if the
> person tried to write such code at work, then the person would be
> kicked out quickly in many places. It is not what companies expect
> when they hire a Java developer.
...

I think of programming languages as tools, not philosophies. Java happens to be 
a favorite tool, one that fits my brain the way my favorite wood carving chisel 
fits my hand. On the other hand, I no more subscribe to "the Java way" than to 
a "the half inch chisel way".

When I'm starting a new program, in a situation in which I'm free to use any 
standards I like, I follow the commonest conventions for the program's 
language. If I'm modifying or adding to an existing project, or working in an 
organization that has other conventions, I follow the local conventions.

Patricia

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#16640

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "jebblue" <jebblue@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "jebblue" <jebblue@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "jebblue" <jebblue@1:261/38.remove-5ky-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: "jebblue" <jebblue@1:261/38.remove-z1h-this>

  To: Patricia Shanahan
From: jebblue <n@n.nnn>

On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:41:01 +0000, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

> To: Arne Vajhr#j
> From: Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
>
> On 7/26/2012 11:47 AM, Arne Vajhoj wrote: ...
>> Someone believing in most of them is a different story. I am skeptical
>> about calling such a person for a Java developer. Even though the code
>> is following JLS and compiles with javac, then there is almost no
>> overlap with the Java world. It is not the Java way. And if the
>> person tried to write such code at work, then the person would be
>> kicked out quickly in many places. It is not what companies expect
>> when they hire a Java developer.
> ...
>
> I think of programming languages as tools, not philosophies. Java happens to
be
> a favorite tool, one that fits my brain the way my favorite wood carving
chisel
> fits my hand. On the other hand, I no more subscribe to "the Java way" than
to
> a "the half inch chisel way".
>
> When I'm starting a new program, in a situation in which I'm free to use any
> standards I like, I follow the commonest conventions for the program's
> language. If I'm modifying or adding to an existing project, or working in an
> organization that has other conventions, I follow the local conventions.
>
> Patricia
>
> --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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I agree with Patricia, eloquently articulated.

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-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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#16568

  To: Arne Vajhøj
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-5ky-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-z1h-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-nwi-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "Gene Wirchenko" <gene.wirchenko@1:261/38.remove-10ae-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net>

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:47:46 -0400, Arne Vajhoj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

>On 7/26/2012 2:01 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

[snip]

>> It may be quite reasonable to decide that you are only willing to
>> respond to questions from people who follow conventions you like, but I
>> don't think it is reasonable to call something not Java because it does
>> not follow those conventions.
>
>Whether some code is valid in the Java language and its semantics
>are obviously defined by the JLS.
>
>But Java comes with a baggage of history, philosophy,
>traditions and lessons learned.

     And mistakes made.  Every language has its downside even _____.
(Fill in the blank however you choose.)

>Java developers are not all identical.
>
>If we look at some of the statements made in various threads:
>- OOP is just overhead
>- patterns are useless
>- micro optimizations are good
>- public fields are OK
>- interfaces are useless
>- I don't want to follow the standard naming convention
>- I don't want to follow the standard formatting convention
>- I don't want to use the Java library because my own is better
>- portability is useless
>- unit tests are useless
>- ORM's are useless
>- make is the right build tool for Java
>- UML is useles
>- Java docs are useless
>etc.
>then the archetype Java developer would not believe in any of them.

     Oh?

     These statements are written as binary.  Either it is right or it
is wrong.  And many are just bait.

     Take the first one.  "OOP is just overhead"  OOP does have
overhead.  That might or might not matter.  If the benefits of OOP outweigh the 
disadvantages, it may well be used.  In another situation, it might not do.  In 
many, it does not matter.

     Other points can be disposed of similarly.  There are only a few
that I would totally agree with.

>But many Java developers actually believe in a few of them, because
>people are different with different personal experiences and working
>in different domains. And best practices are not an exact science.

     Quite.

>Someone believing in most of them is a different story. I am skeptical
>about calling such a person for a Java developer. Even though the code
>is following JLS and compiles with javac, then there is almost no
>overlap with the Java world. It is not the Java way. And if the
>person tried to write such code at work, then the person would be
>kicked out quickly in many places. It is not what companies expect
>when they hire a Java developer.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#16709

  To: Arne Vajhøj
From: "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de>

On 27/07/2012 3:42 PM, Arne Vajhoj wrote: [snip]

Why are half the people in this group suddenly switching to this news.tds.net 
NNTP provider?

I ask because that NNTP provider is b0rken:

1. Every post has the same NNTP-Posting-Host header, even from people I
    know are not sockpuppets of one another, e.g. you, Robert Klemmke,
    David Lamb, and Jim Janney all have recent posts with
    NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.21.70.65.

2. Posts through that server have the References: header stripped. As
    a result, every time any of you posts through that server it breaks
    a piece off the thread you're replying to, causing clutter and making
    discussions more difficult to follow.

3. It seems to fuck up character encodings, most noticeably when Vajhoj
    posts or is replied to via TDS as he has a non-ASCII character in his
    name.

Please switch back to your original providers, or if you can't for some reason, 
such as because they closed, please find something better than TDS to replace 
them with. AIOE works well enough for me and does not break References: when I 
reply or screw up encoding the o character. It does not require signup. 
Eternal-September is something I often see recommended, does require signup, 
but is free. Either of those is probably better than (and maybe even cheaper 
than) this TDS, from all indications.

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the 
known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks

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-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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#16733

  To: kensi
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: kensi
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this>

  To: kensi
From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: kensi
From: Arne Vajhoj <arne@vajhoej.dk>

On 7/28/2012 3:51 PM, kensi wrote:
> On 27/07/2012 3:42 PM, Arne Vajhoj wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Why are half the people in this group suddenly switching to this
> news.tds.net NNTP provider?
>
> I ask because that NNTP provider is b0rken:
>
> 1. Every post has the same NNTP-Posting-Host header, even from people I
>     know are not sockpuppets of one another, e.g. you, Robert Klemmke,
>     David Lamb, and Jim Janney all have recent posts with
>     NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.21.70.65.
>
> 2. Posts through that server have the References: header stripped. As
>     a result, every time any of you posts through that server it breaks
>     a piece off the thread you're replying to, causing clutter and making
>     discussions more difficult to follow.
>
> 3. It seems to fuck up character encodings, most noticeably when Vajhoj
>     posts or is replied to via TDS as he has a non-ASCII character in his
>     name.
>
> Please switch back to your original providers, or if you can't for some
> reason, such as because they closed, please find something better than
> TDS to replace them with. AIOE works well enough for me and does not
> break References: when I reply or screw up encoding the o character. It
> does not require signup. Eternal-September is something I often see
> recommended, does require signup, but is free. Either of those is
> probably better than (and maybe even cheaper than) this TDS, from all
> indications.

All messages seems to show up OK in one copy.

Then some server seems to duplicate them with something messed up including 
weird header and footer.

I have not changed anything in my config and I strongly suspect that the other 
have not either.

Arne

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-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
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--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
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#16753 — PING Arne Vajhoj - Re: Do C++ and Java professionals use UML??

  To: Arne Vajhøj
From: "This account has been banned becaus"
<this.account.has.been.banned.becaus@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: Arne Vajhoj
From: This account has been banned because it violated the Google Groups Terms
Of Use <laughing@u.kook>

"Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this> wrote:

>   To: kensi
> From: "Arne Vajhoj" <arne.vajhoj@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>
>
>   To: kensi
> From: Arne Vajhoj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>
> On 7/28/2012 3:51 PM, kensi wrote:

kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de> is another sockpuppet of Paul G. 
Derbyshire.


--
If you want to see something lamer than John Edward Kook's Aratzio frogeries,
                   check out Scatboi's forgeries.
"It's not paranoia when it's careful analysis of a trail of forensic
           evidence gathered from post headers, fuckwit." - writes
   Feerless Forensic Usenet Investigator, Nadless the Derbyshite sock.
Then Nadless The Kook presents his 'forensic evidence' of 'outright forgery':
<ju2hm1$r7a$1@dont-email.me> = From: Nadegda <nad318b404@gmale.invalid>
<ju55oa$9h3$2@dont-email.me> = From: Nadegda <nad318b404@gmail.invalid>

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 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
--- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

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#16734

  To: kensi
From: "Jim Janney" <jim.janney@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: kensi
From: "Jim Janney" <jim.janney@1:261/38.remove-pvc-this>

  To: kensi
From: "Jim Janney" <jim.janney@1:261/38.remove-5bm-this>

  To: kensi
From: Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com>

kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de> writes:

> On 27/07/2012 3:42 PM, Arne Vajhoj wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Why are half the people in this group suddenly switching to this
> news.tds.net NNTP provider?
>
> I ask because that NNTP provider is b0rken:
>
> 1. Every post has the same NNTP-Posting-Host header, even from people I
>    know are not sockpuppets of one another, e.g. you, Robert Klemmke,
>    David Lamb, and Jim Janney all have recent posts with
>    NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.21.70.65.
>
> 2. Posts through that server have the References: header stripped. As
>    a result, every time any of you posts through that server it breaks
>    a piece off the thread you're replying to, causing clutter and making
>    discussions more difficult to follow.
>
> 3. It seems to fuck up character encodings, most noticeably when Vajhoj
>    posts or is replied to via TDS as he has a non-ASCII character in his
>    name.
>
> Please switch back to your original providers, or if you can't for
> some reason, such as because they closed, please find something better
> than TDS to replace them with. AIOE works well enough for me and does
> not break References: when I reply or screw up encoding the o
> character. It does not require signup. Eternal-September is something
> I often see recommended, does require signup, but is free. Either of
> those is probably better than (and maybe even cheaper than) this TDS,
> from all indications.

For the last several years all my posts, including this one, have been through 
news.eternal-september.org.

--
Jim Janney

-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
--- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

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#16751

  To: Jim Janney
From: "kensi" <kensi@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: Jim Janney
From: kensi <kensi_kensington@zoonoses.de>

On 29/07/2012 3:19 PM, Jim Janney wrote:
> Path: aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news.ripco.com!news-out.news.tds.net!
> newsreading01.news.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail
>
> X-Trace: newsreading01.news.tds.net 1343589550 69.21.70.65 (Sun, 29
> Jul 2012 14:19:10 CDT)

> For the last several years all my posts, including this one, have
> been through news.eternal-september.org.

The headers on "this one" say otherwise.

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the 
known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks

-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
--- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

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#16769

  To: kensi
From: "Patricia Shanahan" <patricia.shanahan@1:261/38.remove-rf4-this>

  To: kensi
From: Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>

On 7/29/2012 5:36 PM, kensi wrote:
> On 29/07/2012 3:19 PM, Jim Janney wrote:
>> Path: aioe.org!news.glorb.com!news.ripco.com!news-out.news.tds.net!
>> newsreading01.news.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail
>>
>> X-Trace: newsreading01.news.tds.net 1343589550 69.21.70.65 (Sun, 29
>> Jul 2012 14:19:10 CDT)
>
>> For the last several years all my posts, including this one, have
>> been through news.eternal-september.org.
>
> The headers on "this one" say otherwise.
>

Exactly. The problem we are having is a rogue server that is corrupting headers 
in such a way that they no longer represent reality.

In that situation, with meaningless headers, we have had to depend on poster 
statements to find out whether all the corrupted articles were sent through a 
particular NNTP server. Unfortunately, that is not the case, so changing how we 
post is unlikely to fix the problem.

Patricia

-+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
-+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1
 * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)
--- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98
Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24

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