Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!usenet.ukfsn.org!not-for-mail From: Martin Gregorie Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer Subject: Re: How to develop without an IDE? Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 11:38:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: UK Free Software Network Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <17227321.23.1335224680979.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbvd8> <4f974f17$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <0g8gp71vfcf9pmstr366olur7ealditdpn@4ax.com> <4f9ca8b2$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <4f9f45c6$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <4q60q7lep8joh4mqdu809bd73266tcha4j@4ax.com> <4fa06bb6$0$291$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <4fa5ae6b$0$283$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <4fa5c544$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 84.45.235.129 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: localhost.localdomain 1336304329 28309 84.45.235.129 (6 May 2012 11:38:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@localhost.localdomain NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 11:38:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Pan/0.135 (Tomorrow I'll Wake Up and Scald Myself with Tea; GIT 30dc37b master) Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:14332 On Sat, 05 May 2012 20:26:41 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 5/5/2012 8:07 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: >> On Sat, 05 May 2012 18:49:11 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> On 5/1/2012 10:21 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >>>> Sometimes, it seems that the good is only a marketing >>>> department. >>>> I have used some tools that are so awkward, I have wondered how they >>>> ever got released. >>> >>> Do you consider "Java developer community" and "marketing department" >>> to be similar concepts? >>> >> There's a sort of connection, in that there are definitely two disjoint >> sets of tools out there. >> >> One set was written because the developer(s) needed them and as a >> result polished and tweezed them until they did the target job >> efficiently and were easy and elegant to use. Examples include Awk, the >> PostgreSQL SQL client, the Embarcadero DBA tools and the XFCE window >> manager >> >> The other set have rough edges and seem so awkward to use that you >> start to wonder if their author's have even tried to use them for the >> tasks they were meant to do. Examples of this group include RPG III, >> the IBM mainframe DB2 client, the ERWIN DBA tools and the Gnome 3 >> window manager. > > That is somewhat true. > > "designed by committee" is not always a success. > > But I do still not quite understand why Gene bring op marketing when I > suggest he use tools recommended by the developer community. > Probably because he thinks my second group of tools are invariably the result of sales guys pushing their outfit into cashing in with a copycat development. I'd say that a lot of them are just that, but some aren't. For instance, I doubt that there was a sales push behind either of Microsoft's edlin or Wordpad editors, but clearly somebody thought they were a good idea and published them despite their rather nasty UI (edlin) and minimal capabilities (both editors). It would be interesting to know what their development teams used for their everyday editing needs. After all both vi and emacs predate DOS and edlin by 5 or 6 years and, regardless of whether you love or hate their UI (which is no worse than edlin's one), you have to admit that both are extremely capable editors and initially ran in similarly small memories too. BTW, I'm not deliberately kicking Microsoft for once: just using their editors as a examples of rather poor tools that most people on this list are likely to have used. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |