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Re: CLI Java Glitch

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On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Peter Duniho wrote:

> On 6/21/11 2:49 PM, Tom Anderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Esmond Pitt wrote:
>> 
>>> On 21/06/2011 8:09 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The Java language system does case-sensitive comparisons between class
>>>> names and the files that contain them when checking that a class name
>>>> matches the file name that contains it
>>> 
>>> Nitpicking, but it doesn't really do that, does it. It opens a .class
>>> file of the name the user specified, loads the class(es) it contains,
>>> and tries to find the classname it was looking for among those
>>> classes. It doesn't explicitly compare the filename and the classname.
>>> The operating system gave it HelloWorld.class in response to
>>> 'helloworld.class' because that's how the OS file system happened to
>>> work.
>> 
>> The way Java does this at the moment means that 'java helloworld', where
>> there is no class 'helloworld', does different things on Windows
>> depending on whether there is a class HelloWorld, hElLoWoRlD,
>> HelloworlD, etc.
>> 
>> That seems pretty shoddy to me. If you're a case-sensitive program
>> running on a case-insensitive operating system, i think it falls on you
>> to pay special attention to case in your dealings with that system:
>
> Speaking of "shoddy", some might consider it "shoddy" to call the 
> _operating system_ "case-insensitive" when in fact it's the _file 
> system_ that is case-insensitive.

It would certainly have been better to say file system rather than 
operating system, i agree. However, the file system is part of the 
operating system. If the operating system's file system is 
case-insensitive when dealing with file paths, then the operating system 
is case-insensitive when dealing with file paths. I don't think my 
phrasing is incorrect.

Where my precision did lapse was in saying "a case-insensitive operating 
system" rather than "an operating system which is case-insensitive when 
dealing with file paths". You're quite right that this means something 
much broader - even when applied to just the file system, where you might 
or might not have case sensitivity around device IDs, disk labels, user 
names, etc.

>> when java opens a class file, it ought to check that the name of the 
>> file it's opened actually has the right case, and if it doesn't, 
>> discard it, and act as if it had got a file not found error from the 
>> operating system.
>
> I don't believe that the error comes from the operating system.  The 
> error comes from opening a file that matches (according to the rules of 
> the file system) the name that was given, which succeeds (i.e. no 
> error), but then failing to find a correctly-named class in that file. 
> The error itself comes from Java, not from the operating system nor even 
> the file system.

Er, yes. I am suggesting that Java *pretend* that it came from the 
operating system. That it treat "asked for foo.class, got Foo.class" the 
same as "asked for foo.class, it wasn't found".

> And frankly, I don't see how Java can do any better than that.  Even on 
> a given OS, the file system itself may or may not be case-insensitive. 
> The best Java can do is ask the file system to open the file that the 
> user specified (exactly as the user specified it), and then if that 
> succeeds to then look for the same-named class.

If the OS has a system call to retrieve the name of a file attached to an 
open file descriptor, and that returns the name in the case with which it 
was created, then it can easily do better - after opening the file, it 
could check that it's really the file it asked for. I believe Windows has 
such a call (or calls - it's a bit messy):

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/65170/how-to-get-name-associated-with-open-handle

If the OS doesn't have such a call, then it can still be done, by 
determining the directory name of the path, listing that directory, and 
looking for a case-sensitive match for the filename. This is rather more 
dubious, because it could get slow in very large directories.

tom

-- 
It is a formal cultural policy to show unreasonable bias towards any
woman who is both attractive and weird.

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CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-20 14:24 -0700
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-20 14:48 -0700
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-20 18:49 -0300
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-06-20 22:09 +0000
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-06-21 10:16 +1000
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-21 22:49 +0100
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-06-21 15:11 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-21 16:37 -0700
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-06-21 17:54 -0700
            Re: CLI Java Glitch lewbloch <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-06-22 09:02 -0700
              Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 10:12 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-22 10:39 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-22 09:50 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-22 19:44 +0100
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-06-23 12:31 -0400
              Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-23 23:04 +0100
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2011-06-23 21:40 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-06-24 09:43 -0400
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-06-23 12:24 -0400
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-23 14:32 -0700
            Re: CLI Java Glitch lewbloch <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 09:12 -0700
              Re: CLI Java Glitch Bent C Dalager <bcd@pvv.ntnu.no> - 2011-06-24 22:49 +0000
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-26 20:29 -0700
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-21 16:29 -0700
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-06-22 11:54 +0100
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 10:16 -0700
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-22 11:06 -0700
              Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 11:46 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 12:50 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-06-23 15:23 +0100
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-23 08:58 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch lewbloch <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 08:58 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-24 11:36 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-22 14:45 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-22 23:29 +0100
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-06-22 18:08 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-23 23:20 +0100
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-06-24 10:28 +1000
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-25 22:58 +0100
                Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-26 20:31 -0700
                Re: CLI Java Glitch lewbloch <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-06-24 09:00 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-22 20:00 +0100
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-06-23 15:18 +0100
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-06-23 11:40 +1000
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-06-23 20:21 +1000
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-23 09:00 -0700
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Esmond Pitt <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> - 2011-06-24 10:24 +1000
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-21 22:52 +0100
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-20 19:11 -0400
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Lew Bloch <lewisbloch@google.com> - 2011-06-20 16:25 -0700
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-20 19:45 -0400
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Lew Bloch <lewisbloch@google.com> - 2011-06-20 18:28 -0700
        Ping: Lew Bloch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-20 23:26 -0400
          Re: Ping: Lew Bloch Lew Bloch <lewisbloch@google.com> - 2011-06-21 10:25 -0700
            Re: Ping: Lew Bloch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-21 14:36 -0400
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-06-20 17:02 -0700
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-20 20:37 -0400
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-20 20:44 -0400
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-21 22:45 +0100
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-06-20 16:55 -0700
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-06-20 20:44 -0400
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-20 19:26 -0700
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Paul Cager <paul.cager@googlemail.com> - 2011-06-21 02:34 -0700
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Silvio <silvio@moc.com> - 2011-06-21 16:50 +0200
        Re: CLI Java Glitch "Gavino" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-21 21:35 +0200
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-06-21 11:59 -0700
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-21 13:03 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-21 14:21 -0700
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-20 19:29 -0700
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-06-21 22:42 +0100
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-21 14:48 -0700
  Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-21 21:52 -0400
    Re: CLI Java Glitch Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-22 07:56 -0300
      Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-22 08:02 -0400
        Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 10:18 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2011-06-22 15:01 -0400
            Re: CLI Java Glitch Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2011-06-22 12:54 -0700
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-06-22 18:52 -0300
          Re: CLI Java Glitch Michael Wojcik <mwojcik@newsguy.com> - 2011-06-23 15:13 -0400

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