Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!gegeweb.org!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Novice Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer Subject: Re: Aspect questions? Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:57:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Your Company Lines: 170 Message-ID: References: <4f4a6b1d$0$290$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: aorhoX7wqL+zg222N4gRzA.user.speranza.aioe.org X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120305-0, 2012-03-05), Outbound message Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:12711 Lew wrote in news:jiqu61$dj8$1@news.albasani.net: > Novice wrote: >> Lew wrote: >>> Novice wrote: >>>> How did you sell employers on that? I really want to know. >>>> >>> I think it's a matter of having the skill and baldly claiming it, >>> but to tell the truth I don't really know how I pull it off. I think >>> people feel the confidence and don't question it too closely. I know >>> my capabilities and people seem to believe me. >>> >>>> I'm picturing a shop whose main language is, say, C++ (which you >>>> haven't mentioned so I assume you don't know it.) The ad calls for >>>> serious C++ > ... >>> >> I didn't mean to overlook any skills or make any unflattering >> assumptions, Lew. I just used C++ because I wanted my example to be >> of something quite substantive that you couldn't learn well in a few >> days (or at least that most people couldn't learn well in a few days >> - you seemed to have learned Java in a remarkably short time!) I >> simply chose > > I learned Java in a week because I'd spent time reading about it for a > year first. > > But I didn't consider that I had learned it because I hadn't used it, > couldn't figure out how packages related to directories, and had some > other troubles. > > I learned the language itself enough to program with it in about a > week in early 1999. That employer knew of my weakness in the language. > I told him I needed a week and he gave me a chance to prove it. > > I wasn't adept in Java until at least 2000, not really until 2001. > During that time I went to Java Users' Group (JUG) meetings, heck, a > friend of mine and I ran a JUG for almost two years, training Java > programmers. (I got trained there, too.) I read constantly, then and > now, various Java articles and still go back and re-read the tutorials > from time to time. Then and now, I wrote sample applications, > sometimes relatively complex, to learn new techniques like JPA and > JSF. > > Often I'd learn something like JPA using Apache OpenJPA, then shortly > thereafter get a job where they used Hibernate, but pre-JPA. So I > didn't have the specific buzzword ("Hibernate", and not JPA at that). > But I had substantial experience in ORMs (Object-Relational Mapping > frameworks), SQL, and JDBC, with study knowledge of JPA. It was > enough; in fact it made me better at Hibernate than the rest of my > team combined, and they had experience with it. > > Beware of claims like "I learned Java in a week". It's taking me a lot > of years to become an overnight success. > :-) Thanks for the clarification on what you meant by "learned". As you say further down, "learned" is a VERY imprecise term! >> C++ because it is complex and you hadn't mentioned it as being one of >> your skills. It doesn't remotely surprise me that you know it and >> possibly very well. It seems quite likely that you learned Java so >> quickly because you had previous exposure to C++ or something like >> it. That would give you exposure to much of the syntax and all of the >> OO concepts and give you a massive head start with Java. >> >>>> skills. You send a resume which doesn't claims no knowledge of C++ >>>> at all. How do you even get an interview let alone persuade them >>>> that you can be productive in that language in short order? >>> >>> I don't recommend trying to learn C++ quickly, nor claiming >>> expertise in it if you don't know it. >>> >> Absolutely! I was astounded that you had learned Java that quickly >> but as I just said above, that probably happened because you had a >> similar language, very likely C++, so that you didn't have all that >> much to learn when you got to Java. > > You know, "learned" is such an imprecise term. > Agreed! >>>>>> impression is that employers all expect you to have a long list >>>>>> of qualifications and certifications in _exactly_ what they want. >>>>>> And they don't seem to want to have to spend any money training >>>>>> anyone for anything. >>>>> >>>>> That's why my resume shows qualifications in every skill. >>>>> >>>> When you say that it shows qualifications, do you mean that it >>>> simply lists technologies that you have used or do you have >>>> specific industry- recognized certifications in each of the >>>> technologies? For instance, one person might list programming >>>> skills like so: >>> >>> No, I mean that as a joke. No one has every skill. >>> >> Of course not. Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I thought you were >> talking about how you described the skills you do have. > > I describe them with five pages of small-print, densely-formatted > resume comprising very brief synopses that mostly just list the > technologies from each project with a curt overview of what I did with > them. > Oh my gosh! You're breaking the One Page Rule! So I'm not the only one that actually answers the question "what do you know" without worrying too much about obeying that horrible rule about keeping resumes to a single page No Matter What.... >>>> Languages Known: COBOL, Fortran, LISP, C++ > > I learned COBOL in college, swearing then not to become known as a > programmer in it. It's actually not a bad language, I now think. I > programmed professionally in FORTRAN (and Fortran) for several years > after I graduated, before teaching myself C. (On the job, with my > manager's blessing. But then, I was already an employee there.) I > learned C++ on my own well enough to convince someone to hire me for > it, then got better at it on the job. > I'm hoping to do the same thing as you did with C++ but with Java instead.... > I've studied LISP but never used it. I don't claim to know the > language. > > I used Python on my most recent project. I was successful at > programming with it, but I have yet to learn it. Nevertheless, it's > listed as a skill, since I can program with it, after all. > >>>> Another might say: >>>> >>>> Languages: Java (Advanced Programmer Certification), C >>>> (Intermediate Programmer Certification), etc. etc. >>> >>> I don't have any certifications. >>> >> I'm even more impressed. So many ads seem to want to see >> certifications. You've managed to get jobs without having the main >> shop language or any certifications! I wouldn't even apply to jobs >> like that on the assumption that my resume would be immediately >> disqualified.... >> >> I would LOVE to find out how you manage to get considered despite >> what seem like insurmountable obstacles to me.... > > I sell the strengths I do have, acknowledge the weaknesses openly but > not obsequiously, and lay out a specific strategy and rationale why > those weaknesses don't matter much but the strengths do. > > And I totally believe in myself. > Now there's something I need to work on.... Self-confidence is NOT my strong suit! > Also, I spent a year living on straight commission once. > Yikes! One of my great nightmares is the prospect of having to do that. I can imagine you pulling it off since you do believe strongly in yourself but I don't have that. The prospect of having to live by sweet-talking people into buying things that they probably don't want or need - and maybe can't afford - is very distasteful to me.... -- Novice