Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.glorb.com!news-out.readnews.com!transit4.readnews.com!news-out.news.tds.net!newsreading01.news.tds.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: "Gene Wirchenko" Subject: Re: Who gets interviewed to produce use cases? Message-ID: <50254C4B.56545.calajapr@time.synchro.net> X-Comment-To: Lew Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer In-Reply-To: <50254C4B.56542.calajapr@time.synchro.net> References: <50254C4B.56542.calajapr@time.synchro.net> X-FTN-AREA: COMP.LANG.JAVA.PROGRAMMER X-FTN-MSGID: 1:261/38 951d82ec X-FTN-REPLY: 1:261/38 59083252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=IBM437 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gateway: time.synchro.net [Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98] Lines: 107 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:38:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.21.70.65 X-Complaints-To: news@tds.net X-Trace: newsreading01.news.tds.net 1344623934 69.21.70.65 (Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:38:54 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:38:54 CDT Organization: tds.net Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:17599 To: Lew From: "Gene Wirchenko" To: Lew From: "Gene Wirchenko" To: Lew From: Gene Wirchenko On Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT), Lew wrote: >On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:26:41 AM UTC-7, David Lamb wrote: >> Does anyone have data, or at least an informed opinion, on how often >> genuine users of a proposed piece of software get consulted on >> developing use cases (or some close equivalent)? I ask here because of >> the recent UML discussion and because I've seen people, especially Lew, >> mention use cases reasonably frequently. > >I mention use cases in a rather abstract sense, that is, to signify the underlying >phenomenon of a collection of circumstances and needs. You seem to use the >term in a more restricted sense of the documentation of such phenomena. I do both, but favour the underlying. My case is a bit special. Having worked for my customer for about twenty years off and on, I have a pretty good idea what needs to be handled. >These are distinct things. The report is not the situation on the ground. > >> In an informal discussion with a colleague I was arguing based on things >> I'd read that "modern best practices" recommended interviewing the >> people who will actually use a software system in their jobs, rather >> than only upper management or professional consultants. He said the >> industry standard was to resell an old system to new customers and >> charge for every small attempt to get it to work the way the customers >> wanted. >> >> Is he being excessively cynical, or am I being excessively naive? Does > >You are not being naive, and he is being cynical. I cannot speak to whether >his cynicism is excessive. I agree. >I disagree that projects generally are designed to rip off customers as he >describes, but in some sectors such practices are more prevalent than in >others. > >Every industry has its snakes in the grass. I agree here, too. >> anyone know which of us is closer to right? Is the answer different for >> the Java and object-oriented-development community than it is for other >> developers? > >Those questions require data. > >If there are data, they are either secret, in which case no one here >can tell you of them, or publicized, in which case GIYF. > >Undoubtedly people here have opinions and anecdotes, but you are asking >about reality. To answer your questions requires data. > >I can tell you from experience that projects exist that might give the >appearance of justifying your colleague's cynicism but that was not >deliberate. Many software projects are not well managed, but I attribute >that to incompetence rather than malice. Industry estimates of the failure >rate for multi-million-dollar projects (up into the billions!) range from >33% to 67%, that I've read. And it could just be that the customer really does not know what he wants. You can try describing it, but too often, he nods and then complains later that it was not what he expected. Or the old "That's just what I said, but it's not what I want!" >So the data indicate that many projects fail to satisfy the requirements, >or even see deployment, with good evidence that it's the majority of projects. Sometimes, what requirements? >The majority of *multi-hundred-million dollar* projects. > >Is that on purpose? The data I've seen don't say. I have read posts by Lynn Wheeler (a long-time IBMer) of the effect of companies having found that they can make more on marge projects by not getting it right the first time. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko -+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38) -+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98 Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24 -+- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1 + Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38) -+- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98 Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24 --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Dada-1 * Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38) --- Synchronet 3.16a-Win32 NewsLink 1.98 Time Warp of the Future BBS - telnet://time.synchro.net:24