Path: csiph.com!news.swapon.de!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Rubin Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: KISS 64-bit pseudo-random number generator Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 03:46:59 -0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 26 Message-ID: <87h6aj3k64.fsf@nightsong.com> References: <7w7cblb9je.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <0d6fd7afead1708921d74f60970bcf62@www.novabbs.com> <2024Sep9.105514@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <87wmjg2t9f.fsf@nightsong.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 12:47:00 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="d658f2b46b9f2b400ce866659ce069dc"; logging-data="872939"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/PM9GCxlVAY4AD1b71JKjz" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Duh/uljHdfg7tD9SbtOZ3pvO0R0= sha1:sfXghkqx6XU7JRz6KAfi+8e7liE= Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.forth:132151 mhx@iae.nl (mhx) writes: >> Try either against a cryptographic PRNG > I guess these generators need to be initialized. Wouldn't the outcome > of the integration then depend on the statistical characteristics of > method used to do that initialization? Generally speaking, no, you'd initialize the PRNG with random or pseudorandom data. You then get an output stream that is supposed to be indistinguishible from genuine random data. minforth@gmx.net (minforth) writes: >> Try either against a cryptographic PRNG > Do they really exist?? The P stands for Pseudo... In crypto jargon, cryptographic PRNG output can't be computationally distinguished from true random data. That is, if you have a pseudorandom source and a true random source but you don't know which is which, there is no efficient method of distinguishing them that is better than guessing. If the mathematical theory surrounding this is of interest, the first few chapters of these lecture notes are a good place to start. They demystified the topic for me. https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/227/spring05/book/main.pdf