Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Ames Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth,comp.infosystems.www.misc Subject: Re: non-mainstream web (browsers) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 10:45:55 -0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 43 Message-ID: <20250818104555.00004350@gmail.com> References: <875xhmdyhp.fsf@gmail.com> <10161sb$3s461$1@news.xmission.com> <83c1b04b4b39bdfc05f5c0fd91cd4b1872f9d028@i2pn2.org> <2025May29.084744@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <87wm9z2866.fsf@nightsong.com> <87zfepnjep.fsf@nightsong.com> <87tt4s4dwv.fsf@nightsong.com> <87cybb4838.fsf@nightsong.com> <10788vk$1g8ve$1@dont-email.me> <20250811085344.000008a8@gmail.com> <107dokd$2s7am$1@dont-email.me> <20250811145732.00004e6e@gmail.com> <107imbr$1nk0$1@dont-email.me> <20250813121414.0000180d@gmail.com> <107nita$161ct$1@dont-email.me> <20250815090319.00004318@gmail.com> <107r4mp$206g0$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 17:46:03 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="e142a85db2bb88de2b4e3140d91bbdb2"; logging-data="3414865"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/bhIdUPN6ytbgN5OBYOd8d7Pf9N4ehX9o=" Cancel-Lock: sha1:9Gf9hW082gy3tB9JsnfypaA5flI= X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.42; x86_64-w64-mingw32) Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.forth:134132 comp.infosystems.www.misc:287 On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 23:36:57 -0000 (UTC) Doc O'Leary , wrote: > > I'm not dictating what anyone else should use, or even what they > > should specifically work to support. =20 >=20 > But you are. You just *think* you=E2=80=99re being sly about it by > pretending that it=E2=80=99s the oh-so-evil people running web sites that= are > making it hard for the oh-so-good people making their 8 billion > different choices. Sorry, no, you=E2=80=99re just trying to reframe =E2= =80=9Cthe > other=E2=80=9D as the dictator so *you* can be the dictator of what a *tr= ue* > web site should be. I will clarify for the sake of being clear, though I doubt it'll keep you from firing back with another "no u" - I'm *not* demanding that anybody specifically work to support Browser XYZ. What I *do* expect out of Web designers is some bare minimum of thought put into designing with an eye towards graceful degradation, which (while never perfect) has been possible since the beginning and remains so today. I'm talking about basic, *basic* stuff here - things like not depending on Javascript to load and display static page content, not hiding all your site navigation behind a hamburger button and CSS pop-over, and for the love of all that is good and holy *not* redirecting unfamiliar user agents to a screw-you-for-not-using-an-Approved-Browser page. These are *not* hard things - in fact, it usually takes more work to do the Bad Behavior than to *not* do it. They don't require designers to spend hours fiddling with their site design to work around Browser XYZ's esoteric CSS support or tendency to choke on emoji glyphs or whatever; they just require designers to *not* do things that they shouldn't be doing anyway. It's not dictatorial to expect that of Web designers; it is (or ought to be) a basic qualification of the profession, in the same way that, if you build a chair that falls apart the moment someone sits a little too far to the left in it or clunks the occupant with a clown hammer because they didn't do a little dance first, you're objectively a bad furniture designer.