Re: unicode is a fail

From	Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: unicode is a fail
Date	2015-12-04 19:17 +0000
Organization	Friends of the Galactic Collective
Message-ID	<y51yVe.p8Y.TmUhC@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	<fbcae10f-7fc6-4a1e-90d7-ea4925016e47@googlegroups.com> <Lm9Wic.bdh.YZJEv@gmail.com> <n3o36b$ud0$1@dont-email.me> <2qyvC0.96Q.SQT8q@gmail.com> <n3s3tj$8qe$1@dont-email.me>

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On Fri, Dec 04, 2015 at 01:22:04PM +0000, BartC wrote:
> On 03/12/2015 07:00, Steve Thompson wrote:
> >On Thu, Dec 03, 2015 at 12:45:10AM +0000, BartC wrote:
> >>On 02/12/2015 23:24, Steve Thompson wrote:
> >>>On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 08:01:52AM -0800, fir wrote:
> >>
> >>>In the long term, US-ASCII will be restricted to select niches, such
> >>>as extremely tiny embedded processors.  Or simulators of legacy
> >>>hardware, etc.  There is no reason to think that a text encoding
> >>>scheme that cannot represent arbitrary language symbols will survive
> >>>much into the future.
> >>
> >>An encoding scheme that can only describe English?
> >>
> >>(Or, with a few dozen additions to fill those spare 128 slots, French,
> >>Italian, Spanish, German, maybe even pin-yin.)
> >>
> >>You're right, that is no use at all...
> >
> >But which languages?  With 128 characters you can't support all of
> >them (but perhaps most).  If you propose to keep ASCII and use code
> >pages (as I think I understand the scheme) to determine which symbols
> >occupy those 128 extra positions at any given time, you have merely
> >punted the problem to another layer.
> 
> What is the problem? That any computer in any country should always be 
> able to deal with 99.99% of the World's alphabets that it doesn't care 
> about? (I normally need about 100 characters which is 0.01% of the 1 
> million in Unicode.)
> 
> I suspect that most people are mainly interested in their own language!

I don't know about most people, but I am often annoyed that my
keyboard does not show a means of generating accented characters.  I
do not use foreign-language words and phrases often, but when I do it
is more than trivially annoying to used a character picker.  Which is
why I usually write 'naive' instead of 'naïve', etc.

> So that is something about Unicode I'm not comfortable with. Our nice 
> tidy little alphabet (perhaps one of the reasons the West has been ahead 
> technologically) is swamped by these huge character sets from around the 
> world, which still don't like being marshalled into neat little units.

The West?  Are you forgetting the Europe is also part of "the West"?

The technological lead of the West is another matter, and I am sorry
if you are inconvenienced by the catch-up game underway in other parts
of the world.  Greek, APL, formal logic, mathematics, etc. are all
sufficiently pervasive that their symbols merit inclusion in any
reasonable general-use character set, and on that basis any fixation
on English is bound to be terribly short-sighted.

> Fortunately the same ideas were not applied to encodings such as Morse 
> code, semaphore or telex, and we don't have Scrabble sets with a million 
> different blocks to make it international. While dictionaries and books 
> in general still tend to deal with one (or sometimes two) languages at a 
> time. Not 6000.

Again which languages?  Software I use would be prudent to include the
capacity to render English, French, German, Swedish (Scandinavian
language generally), Greek, Latin, as well as the characters
appropriate to mathematics symbols and so on.  The preference of others
is bound to be different.  My requirements might be met with a 16-bit
encoding while an Asian speaker will have a substantially different
preference.  A single encoding scheme for everyone at least avoids the
ghettoization of any one language demographic.

> I think some things should be kept local (like the telephone numbers in 
> a country, road designations, and car registrations, although no doubt 
> people will want to unify all those as well).

Multi-lingual speakers are not likely to cooperate.

> As it is, Unicode is unwieldy. I don't think many would disagree.

I do not disagree, and if something better arises I am sure many, many
programmers sigh a little sigh of relief.  Util then...

Regards,

Steve Thompson

-- 
"If I had a nickel for every time some idiot called me about a
computer problem that turned out to be user error, I would be able to
retire and spend the rest of my days cultivating clues in my backyard
hillside garden."  -- MysteryDog in 24hoursupport.helpdesk.

Thread

unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 08:01 -0800
  Re: unicode is a fail me <self@example.org> - 2015-12-02 16:12 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 09:09 -0800
  Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-02 08:18 -0800
    Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 09:07 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 11:21 -0600
        Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 09:40 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 11:22 -0800
          Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 15:59 -0600
            Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 16:25 -0800
              Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 19:47 -0600
          Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-02 14:38 -0800
            Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 16:26 -0800
              Re: unicode is a fail Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 11:33 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-09 12:21 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 11:28 +0100
          Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-03 08:50 -0600
            Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 16:38 +0100
              Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-03 10:01 -0600
            Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-03 09:46 -0800
            Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-04 12:39 +0000
          Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-03 08:26 -0800
            Re: unicode is a fail glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-03 18:42 +0000
              Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-03 17:14 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-03 19:02 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-04 06:35 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-28 05:11 -0500
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-04 10:24 -0600
            Re: unicode is a fail Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-03 22:37 +0000
              Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-04 11:32 +0100
    Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 11:10 -0600
      Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 09:24 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 13:10 -0600
          Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-02 19:45 +0000
            Re: unicode is a fail Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-03 09:08 +1300
            Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 14:10 -0600
      Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 11:27 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 15:21 -0600
          Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 15:18 -0800
            Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-04 12:45 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 09:43 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-02 11:40 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-02 12:19 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-12-02 21:23 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 10:12 +0100
      Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-03 02:13 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 14:11 +0100
          Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-03 05:17 -0800
            Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 15:33 +0100
              Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-03 07:05 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 16:42 +0100
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-03 07:58 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-03 10:38 +0000
        Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-03 14:17 +0100
      Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-04 12:54 +0000
        Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-04 14:25 +0100
          Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-04 13:46 +0000
  Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 23:24 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-03 00:45 +0000
      Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-02 20:59 -0600
      Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-02 19:13 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 07:00 +0000
        Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-04 04:45 -0800
          Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 18:04 +0000
        Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-04 13:22 +0000
          Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-04 07:35 -0800
          Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 19:17 +0000
            Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-04 11:49 -0800
              Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-04 15:39 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-04 14:19 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-06 12:57 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-06 15:47 -0800
              Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-05 01:13 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-05 01:59 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-12-05 17:17 +0100
                Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 06:28 +0000
            Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-04 23:46 +0000
              Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-05 01:04 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 03:21 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-05 13:03 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-05 11:47 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 04:40 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-05 13:26 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-05 13:35 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-06 02:23 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 16:09 +0530
                Re: unicode is a fail Xavier <zaz.colmant@free.fr> - 2015-12-05 15:45 +0100
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 07:42 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-05 16:32 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 18:11 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-06 02:19 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-06 13:09 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-06 18:38 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 01:55 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-06 19:14 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 13:53 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-07 06:31 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-07 21:22 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-07 15:34 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-07 16:36 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Lowell Gilbert <lgusenet@be-well.ilk.org> - 2015-12-08 11:40 -0500
                Re: unicode is a fail Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-12-08 17:18 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-09 08:36 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-09 10:06 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-09 09:35 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 10:07 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-09 12:04 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 12:35 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 23:46 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 16:15 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-10 03:49 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-09 18:12 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-09 13:12 -0500
                Re: unicode is a fail Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-09 12:12 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-10 20:48 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-09 23:44 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-10 01:13 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-10 10:39 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-10 03:33 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-10 06:07 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-12-10 08:21 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-10 00:59 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 14:33 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-06 22:45 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 12:38 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-07 13:55 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-12-07 21:14 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-07 16:50 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-12-07 02:38 -0600
                Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 07:34 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-06 00:24 -0800
              Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-04 19:49 -0600
            Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-05 21:32 +0000
              Re: unicode is a fail Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 13:50 -0800
                Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-05 22:15 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-05 17:27 -0500
                Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-05 23:06 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-05 18:29 -0500
                Re: unicode is a fail Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-12-05 23:50 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 06:38 +0000
                Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-06 13:33 +0000
              Re: unicode is a fail James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-12-05 16:51 -0500
              Re: unicode is a fail Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-06 10:59 +1300
                Re: unicode is a fail Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-12-06 11:00 +1300
              Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 06:31 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-02 17:48 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 01:20 -0800
        Re: unicode is a fail fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-12-03 02:02 -0800
    Re: unicode is a fail Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-12-03 09:43 -0600
    Re: unicode is a fail raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-04 12:55 +0000
      Re: unicode is a fail Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-04 18:29 +0000
        Re: unicode is a fail Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-12-05 16:42 +0000
    Re: unicode is a fail Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-12-05 10:06 +0000
      OT: Usenet (Was: unicode is a fail) Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-12-05 20:41 +0000
        Re: OT: Usenet (Was: unicode is a fail) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-12-05 13:18 -0800
      Re: unicode is a fail Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 10:21 +0530
        OT: Facebook (was Re: unicode is a fail) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-12-06 08:51 +0000
          Re: OT: Facebook (was Re: unicode is a fail) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-06 13:45 +0000

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