Re: fledgling assembler programmer

From	gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.compilers
Subject	Re: fledgling assembler programmer
Date	2023-03-24 14:17 -0700
Organization	Compilers Central
Message-ID	<23-03-012@comp.compilers> (permalink)
References	<23-03-001@comp.compilers> <23-03-002@comp.compilers> <23-03-003@comp.compilers> <23-03-007@comp.compilers> <23-03-008@comp.compilers>

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On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 7:10:00 AM UTC-7, Thomas Koenig wrote:

(snip about the lost art of small memory compilers.)

> On the Internet, there is a project for almost everything - in this
> case Tiny C, which still seems to be under active development. Or
> at least there are sill commits at https://repo.or.cz/w/tinycc.git .

> However, there is a reason why compilers got so big - there is
> always a balance to be struck between comilation speed, compiler
> size and optimization.

When I was writing the above, I was looking at the Program Logic
Manual for the OS/360 Fortran G compiler.
(G means it is supposed to run in 128K.)

Fortran G was not written by IBM, but contracted out.  And is not
(mostly) in assembler, but in something called POP.  That is, it
is interpreted by the POP interpreter, with POPcode written using
assembler macros.   Doing that, for one, allows reusing the code
for other machines, though you still need to rewrite the code
generator.  But also, at least likely, it decreases the size of
the compiler.  POP instructions are optimized for things that
compiler need to do.

I also had the source to that so many years ago, but not the
manual describing it.

> An extreme example: According to "Abstracting Away the Machine", the
> very first FORTRAN compiler was so slow that the size of programs
> it could compile was limited by the MTBF of the IBM 704 of around
> eight hours.

I remember stories about how well its optimizer worked, when
it was believed that they had to compete in code speed with
experienced assembly programmers.  I don't remember anything
about how fast it was.

> The balance has shifted over time, because of increasing computing
> power and available memory that can be applied to compilation,
> and because relatively more people use programs than use compilers
> than ever before. So, in today's environment, there is little
> incentive for writing small compilers.

I first thought about this, when reading about the Hercules project
of an IBM S/370 emulator, and couldn't run gcc in 16MB.
(Well, subtract some for the OS, but it still wouldn't fit.)

> Also, languages have become bigger, more expressive, more powerful,
> more bloated (take your pick), which also increases the size
> of compilers.

OK, the IBM PL/I (F) compiler, for what many consider a bloated
language, is designed to run (maybe not well) in 64K.
At the end of every compilation it tells how much memory was
used, how much available, and how much to keep the symbol table
in memory.

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fledgling assembler programmer Alan.Beck@darkrealms.ca (Alan Beck) - 2023-03-21 17:40 -0400
  Re: fledgling assembler programmer gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-21 17:23 -0700
    Re: fledgling assembler programmer Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2023-03-22 06:49 +0000
      Re: fledgling assembler programmer gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-22 13:31 -0700
        Re: fledgling assembler programmer Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2023-03-23 11:26 +0000
          Re: fledgling assembler programmer gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-24 14:17 -0700
            Re: ancient PL/I, was fledgling assembler programmer drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2023-03-24 22:51 +0000
              Re: ancient PL/I, was fledgling assembler programmer gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-24 22:44 -0700
                Re: ancient PL/I, was fledgling assembler programmer gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-25 01:27 -0700
            Re: fledgling assembler programmer Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2023-03-25 13:07 +0100
              Re: fledgling assembler programmer George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2023-03-25 20:54 -0400
                Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2023-03-28 09:21 +0200
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) arnold@freefriends.org (Aharon Robbins) - 2023-03-28 14:42 +0000
                Re: configuguration tools, Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-03-29 18:33 +0000
                Re: configuguration tools, Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) arnold@skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) - 2023-03-31 07:10 +0000
                Re: configuguration tools, Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2023-04-02 08:56 +0000
                Re: Portable Software Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2023-03-31 07:49 +0200
                Re: Portable Software anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2023-04-02 10:04 +0000
                Re: Portable Software Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2023-04-05 11:23 +0200
                Re: Portable Software anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2023-04-05 16:30 +0000
                Re: Portable Software Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-04-06 08:35 +0000
                Re: Portable Software Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@netscape.net> - 2023-04-07 15:35 +0200
                Re: Portable Software Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2023-04-08 18:25 +0000
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-28 14:21 -0700
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> - 2023-03-29 18:34 +0000
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2023-03-28 17:26 -0400
                Re: Portable python Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2023-03-29 13:50 -0400
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-29 11:27 -0700
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2023-03-31 05:19 +0000
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2023-03-31 12:41 -0700
                Re: Portable Software (was: fledgling assembler programmer) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2023-03-31 16:34 +0000
      Re: fledgling assembler programmer arnold@skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) - 2023-03-23 13:56 +0000
    Re: fledgling assembler programmer anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2023-03-22 10:02 +0000
  Re: fledgling assembler programmer David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-03-22 14:39 +0100
  Re: fledgling assembler programmer George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2023-03-22 14:54 -0400

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