Path: csiph.com!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!news.iecc.com!.POSTED.news.iecc.com!nerds-end From: Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> Newsgroups: comp.compilers Subject: Re: Undefined behaviour, was: for or against equality Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:55:54 -0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 26 Sender: news@iecc.com Approved: comp.compilers@iecc.com Message-ID: <22-01-043@comp.compilers> References: <17d70d74-1cf1-cc41-6b38-c0b307aeb35a@gkc.org.uk> <22-01-016@comp.compilers> <22-01-018@comp.compilers> <7f4f52f2-49ee-9e80-1f03-c3fb9c74f574@gkc.org.uk> <22-01-029@comp.compilers> <22-01-033@comp.compilers> Injection-Info: gal.iecc.com; posting-host="news.iecc.com:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:676f:7373:6970"; logging-data="9819"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@iecc.com" Keywords: standards, Lisp Posted-Date: 11 Jan 2022 13:07:32 EST X-submission-address: compilers@iecc.com X-moderator-address: compilers-request@iecc.com X-FAQ-and-archives: http://compilers.iecc.com Xref: csiph.com comp.compilers:2819 On 2022-01-08, Anton Ertl wrote: > David Brown writes: >>Undefined behaviour, as far as language standards are concerned, are >>omnipresent in programming - for all languages. > > Please prove this astounding assertion. My impression is that managed > languages define everything, at least to some extent, and leave > nothing undefined. If they allowed nasal demons, the appeal of > managed languages would evaporate instantly. The Lisp-like programming language Scheme has unspecified order of argument evaluation. And you can stuff side effects into argument expressions, like in C. Its built-in imperative have undefined return values. ANSI Common Lisp leaves the effects undefined of modifying literals, just like C. ANSI Lisp code that perpetrates some kind of error is safe only if compiled in safe mode; if you compile with reduced safety, e.g. (declare (optimize (safety 0))), then error become undefined behavior, including type errors. If you declare that some quantity is a fixnum integer, and request safety 0 speed 3, and then it turns out that it's other than an integer, woe to that code. However, in these cases you're invoking the safety escape hatch; it's not like C where you are shackled by chains of undefined behavior which make themselves felt every time you squirm.