Path: csiph.com!xmission!news.alt.net!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:20:16 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Simply_defining_G=c3=b6del_Incompleteness_and_Tarsk?= =?UTF-8?Q?i_Undefinability_away_V24_=28Are_we_there_yet=3f=29?= Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,comp.ai.nat-lang,sci.lang.semantics References: <87k0z85tt0.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <87d0505kmk.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <5Lmdnehh4P6hLZbCnZ2dnUU7-LdQAAAA@giganews.com> <878sfo5elp.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <87zh820x98.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <87imeo1wov.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <87a7001bhr.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <87sgdrz49w.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <874kq7yug9.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <4dKdnXavpI9eu4zCnZ2dnUU7-S3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ft9qy3cn.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> From: olcott Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:20:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87ft9qy3cn.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: Lines: 58 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-ojEje6TRB271qSpDUlJ7pAoMbEmJ7ywY9BKgX18u0L41aHezFPgcbYRFR5BDHsZmIkaAsNDgJOMrgpP!qlSXfjLwagcWxGfeS0/w4p1Nw3vfEsrf7rH9uDioTC3yBtBXeDC5iHZJ00YIFth83cCVZ8TQxE0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 X-Original-Bytes: 4682 Xref: csiph.com comp.theory:21753 comp.ai.philosophy:22092 comp.ai.nat-lang:2462 On 7/17/2020 3:04 AM, Keith Thompson wrote: > olcott writes: >> On 7/16/2020 5:19 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: >>> olcott writes: >>>> On 7/16/2020 1:46 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: > You know, it's possible to trim quoted material when you post a > followup. It's even considered polite to do so if you're not going to > say anything about it. I asked you a question. You are of course under > no obligation to answer it, but if you're not going to answer it please > stop quoting it. > > Here's the question again: Is that your whole problem with Gödel's > proof, that you don't like the way he defines "incompleteness" (or more > likely "Unvollständigkeit")? > That a self-contradictory sentence cannot be proven or disproven (because it is self-contradictory) is a pretty nutty basis for determining that a formal system is incomplete. >> It seems a little too weird that none of the greatest mathematicions >> in the world could apply junior high school logic to the definition of >> incompleteness. > > Yeah, that seems weird, doesn't it. It almost seems as if Gödel was > actually right. > > A definition merely tells us how a word is being used. > > Is the concept to which the word "undecideability" is applied a valid > concept? Undecidability as it is currently used in math and computer science is like the problem of deciding which of the two Boolean values represent the current time. I must be stupid because I can't decide whether the sentence: "What time is it?" is true or false, and formal systems are "incomplete" on exactly this same kind of basis. All undecidable decision problems have the same issue: The restrict their solution set to the intersection of disjoint sets. > (Note that a valid concept can be something that doesn't > necessarily exist; we have words for "centaur" and "unicorn" and we know > what they mean.) Are you *really* basing all this on your dislike of > the way a word was used? Does your argument hold together if we use a > different word for that same concept? > >> When you start with truth and only apply truth preserving operations >> then you necessarily always must end up with truth. If there is any >> break in the inference chain then you simply do not end up with truth. > -- Copyright 2020 Pete Olcott