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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #147505 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-06-27 14:10 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-06-28 18:39 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 204 — 31 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-27 14:10 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-28 08:08 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-06-28 15:38 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 07:01 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2015-07-01 20:45 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 08:08 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2015-07-02 00:01 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 10:39 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-01 16:41 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 10:42 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-03 12:55 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-04 08:48 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-06-28 15:46 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-06-28 16:04 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-06-29 08:22 +0200
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 06:56 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-06-29 12:15 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-06-29 16:17 +0200
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 10:22 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-06-29 10:30 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 18:42 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 10:13 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-06-30 12:56 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 05:12 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-06-29 19:40 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 20:48 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-06-30 20:50 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-30 14:09 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 17:06 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-01 09:00 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-02 17:35 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-07-02 20:40 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-03 09:28 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 06:36 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-03 15:27 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-07-03 14:41 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-03 20:53 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2015-06-30 17:51 -0600
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 04:33 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-06-29 20:04 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-06-30 10:27 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 05:02 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 08:38 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 05:16 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-06-30 12:17 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-29 09:50 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-06-29 12:32 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 04:40 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 04:23 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-06-30 12:56 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-06-30 09:25 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-06-30 17:23 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-06-30 12:39 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-07-01 10:10 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-01 12:06 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 05:29 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-02 11:44 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-02 16:04 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-02 11:32 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-07-02 20:41 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 05:55 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-02 17:35 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-02 19:05 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-02 21:58 +0200
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-03 12:31 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-04 04:59 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-07-01 09:18 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-07-01 11:34 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-01 09:15 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-06-30 19:36 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-07-01 10:29 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-01 12:06 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 05:36 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-01 12:06 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 05:28 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-01 17:29 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-02 11:44 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 06:56 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-02 09:03 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-02 10:01 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-02 16:36 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-02 10:56 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-02 10:55 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-02 16:10 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-02 13:27 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 05:48 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-02 21:51 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2015-07-04 06:39 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 05:47 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-02 11:59 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-02 11:50 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-02 13:42 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-07-03 10:03 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 05:21 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-07-02 20:45 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-02 17:07 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-02 18:04 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 15:02 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-02 21:54 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-03 12:31 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-03 08:15 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 05:53 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-03 12:24 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-03 14:12 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-04 11:41 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-04 14:17 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-04 11:59 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-07-06 10:56 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally lawrence@cluon.com - 2015-07-07 16:18 +0200
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-04 13:55 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 05:40 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-04 20:05 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-05 13:49 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-05 09:05 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-05 17:49 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-06 11:36 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-07 05:45 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-06 06:03 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2015-07-05 23:23 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-06 15:43 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-06 11:36 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-06 16:02 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-07 12:37 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-07 05:43 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-05 16:37 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-06 13:52 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-07 05:42 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-07 12:37 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 05:20 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-07 12:37 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-07 17:25 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-07 15:40 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-08 06:46 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-07 18:07 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-08 08:33 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "EspenFucker" <EF4312@nospam.com> - 2015-07-08 14:47 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Kerr Mudd-John" <notsaying@invalid.org> - 2015-07-08 13:08 -0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-08 16:52 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-07-08 13:26 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-08 17:41 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-09 05:00 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-09 00:29 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "EspenFucker" <EF4312@nospam.com> - 2015-07-09 04:45 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-08 14:35 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Kerr Mudd-John" <notsaying@invalid.org> - 2015-07-08 13:15 -0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-08 10:09 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-08 16:25 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Hop David <hopd@nospam.cunews.info> - 2015-07-09 15:36 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-09 04:44 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-08 16:52 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-08 18:08 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-09 09:18 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-08 07:23 +0200
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-09 12:15 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-09 16:04 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-09 11:49 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-09 12:27 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-07-09 19:02 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-09 14:05 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-09 12:12 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-10 05:39 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-10 00:45 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-09 23:21 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-10 15:29 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-10 00:30 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-10 10:22 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-10 10:26 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-10 16:36 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-10 13:06 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-10 10:27 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-11 04:46 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 05:22 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "ratsack" <ratgsack281@nospam.com> - 2015-07-10 05:25 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-08 14:20 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-08 16:52 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-09 12:15 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-10 05:23 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-09 04:47 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 05:23 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-07 22:02 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-07 13:49 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-08 05:28 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-08 14:20 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-08 11:32 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-09 12:15 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-09 04:51 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-01 05:10 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-30 04:53 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally lynn@garlic.com - 2015-06-29 17:36 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-06-30 11:23 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-06-30 14:07 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-07-01 10:14 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-01 17:34 -0500
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-07-03 09:42 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2015-07-01 20:47 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-07-02 08:12 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-06-29 07:05 +0000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) - 2015-06-30 10:41 +0100
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-30 09:22 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-30 09:59 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-07 10:14 -0700
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-06-28 12:03 -0400
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> - 2015-06-29 06:54 +1000
Re: Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-06-28 18:39 -0700
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-27 14:10 -0700 |
| Subject | Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally |
| Message-ID | <871tgwkgc4.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain> |
Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-fraud-solution-coming-to-america---finally-192611312.html In mid-90s, I worked on chip solution in the X9 financial standard working group ... approx. the same time another effort was being worked on in Europe (which had *NONE* of the vulnerabilities that the effort in Europe has had). In the early part of the century, there was a major pilot deployment of the EU chip&pin solution in the US. However, this was during the "yes card" period ... which characterized their chip&pin solution as having worse fraud than magstripe. There is reference at the bottom on this Cartes2002 trip report (gone 404, but lives on at the wayback machine). http://web.archive.org/web/20030417083810/http://www.smartcard.co.uk/resources/articles/cartes2002.html In the wake of the "yes card" fiasco, all evidence of the large pilot disappeared, and there was speculation it would be a long time before it was tried in the US again. Part of the issue 1) even a pilot deployment in the US is more costly than full country production deployment in other places, 2) huge concern about the cost of possibly repeated multiple failed deployments, 3) let experiments with failing deployments be done in places where the failures would have much lower financial impact As referenced in the cartes 2002 trip report, it was trivial to clone a counterfeit "yes card" (as easy as cloning a magstripe). Part of the reference to worse fraud than magstripe was the implementation allowed a (possibly counterfeit) card to tell the terminal not to check for valid account. With counterfeit magstripe, it is possible to deactivate an account number and that shutdowns further fraudulent transactions. With counterfeit "yes card" chipcard telling the point-of-sale terminal to not check for valid account number ... there is no way to stop it making fraudulent transactions. "yes card" posts httP//www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#yescard Long ago and far away, we were brought in as consultants to small client/server startup that wanted to do payment transactions on their server, they had also invented this technology called "SSL" they wanted to use; the result is now frequently called "electronic commerce" some semi-related posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#sslcerts Somewhat for having done "electronic commerce", in the mid-90s we were invited to participate in the X9A10 financial standard working group which had been given the requirement to preserve the integrity of the financial infrastructure for *ALL* retail payments (not just internet, *ALL*). We did end-to-end threat and vulnerability studies before coming up with solution (for *ALL* retail payments). In comparison, the card associations have done a number of adhoc solutions that have frequently had a number of shortcomings and repeated vulnerabilities. references http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#x959 past posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subpubkey.html#x959 The problem with the X9A10 solution is that it drastically reduced the cost, fraud, infrastructure, barriers-to-entry, etc for doing payment transaction ... there are significant stakeholders in the existing infrastructure interested in preserving the status quo. An analogy is this description about IBM executives shutting down the advanced computing effort in the late 60s because it would advance the state of the art too fast and they were afraid of loosing control of the business http://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/acs_end.html From Amdahl interview: IBM management decided not to do it, for it would advance the computing capability too fast for the company to control the growth of the computer marketplace, thus reducing their profit potential. I then recommended that the ACS lab be closed, and it was. ... snip ... -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-28 08:08 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cv8l7mF7eanU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147505 |
"Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message news:871tgwkgc4.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain... > > Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally > http://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-fraud-solution-coming-to-america---finally-192611312.html Typical mindless silly stuff with the bare faced lie that the reason the US is so late with chipped cards is because the countries that went chipped cards much earlier was because they didn’t have the technology to have the terminal communicate back to the bank and so went with chipped cards because they didn’t. In fact that was never true with first and second world countries and the third world which did have a problem with communications didn’t have chipped cards.
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| From | Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-28 15:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mmplt9$8j9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #147508 |
On 28-Jun-15 13:09, Lon wrote: > On 6/27/2015 16:08, John Chance wrote: >> In fact that was never true with first and second world countries >> and the third world which did have a problem with communications >> didn’t have chipped cards. > > A bit harsh. Would be interested in where your break for 2nd and > 3rd world countries is, ... The terms are outdated now, but the definition was always clear: The "1st World" included the USA and its sphere of influence. The "2nd World" included the USSR and its sphere of influence. The "3rd World" included everyone else. Note that was a political/military classification, not an economic one, though many incorrectly used it for that as well since there were fairly consistent differences in that area that paralleled political ones. Today, the division is "developed" vs "developing" countries, which is based purely on economic factors. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 07:01 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cvb5lnFqulvU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147577 |
"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message news:mmplt9$8j9$1@dont-email.me... > On 28-Jun-15 13:09, Lon wrote: >> On 6/27/2015 16:08, John Chance wrote: >>> In fact that was never true with first and second world countries >>> and the third world which did have a problem with communications >>> didn’t have chipped cards. >> >> A bit harsh. Would be interested in where your break for 2nd and >> 3rd world countries is, ... > > The terms are outdated now, but the definition was always clear: > > The "1st World" included the USA and its sphere of influence. It was never USA specific. > The "2nd World" included the USSR and its sphere of influence. That mangles the real story. The 2nd world was the level below the 1st world and included places like say Taiwan etc. > The "3rd World" included everyone else. > > Note that was a political/military classification, not an economic one, Wrong. > though many incorrectly used it for that as well since there were fairly > consistent differences in that area that paralleled political ones. > > Today, the division is "developed" vs "developing" countries, It has never been that binary. which is > based purely on economic factors.
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| From | John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-01 20:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mn1jhq$1f2p$1@miucha.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #147508 |
>Typical mindless silly stuff with the bare faced lie that the >reason the US is so late with chipped cards is because the >countries that went chipped cards much earlier was because >they didn’t have the technology to have the terminal >communicate back to the bank and so went with chipped >cards because they didn’t. In fact that was never true with >first and second world countries and the third world which >did have a problem with communications didn’t have >chipped cards. I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It was not cheap and instant like it was here.
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-02 08:08 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cvj6mpFsh05U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147840 |
"John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> wrote in message news:mn1jhq$1f2p$1@miucha.iecc.com... >>Typical mindless silly stuff with the bare faced lie that the >>reason the US is so late with chipped cards is because the >>countries that went chipped cards much earlier was because >>they didn’t have the technology to have the terminal >>communicate back to the bank and so went with chipped >>cards because they didn’t. In fact that was never true with >>first and second world countries and the third world which >>did have a problem with communications didn’t have >>chipped cards. > > I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in > France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It > was not cheap and instant like it was here. Doesn’t explain why all the rest like Canada and Britain went chip and pin a hell of a lot earlier than the US did.
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| From | John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-02 00:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mn1v0s$29lq$2@miucha.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #147844 |
>> I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in >> France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It >> was not cheap and instant like it was here. > >Doesn’t explain why all the rest like Canada and Britain >went chip and pin a hell of a lot earlier than the US did. In Britain, it was because the banks got a bribe -- if a merchant uses a chip+pin terminal, they push the fraud risk on the customer. (Ross Anderson at Cambridge has written at length about how this has screwed innocent bank customers.) In Canada, I think it was because of rampant tax fraud at restaurants in Quebec. When they went to chip+pin, all of the restos had to install tamper-resistant things on their cash registers that print strange security hieroglyphics on the receipt.
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-02 10:39 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cvjfinF1p3U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147850 |
"John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> wrote in message news:mn1v0s$29lq$2@miucha.iecc.com... >>> I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in >>> France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It >>> was not cheap and instant like it was here. >> >>Doesn’t explain why all the rest like Canada and Britain >>went chip and pin a hell of a lot earlier than the US did. > > In Britain, it was because the banks got a bribe -- if a merchant uses > a chip+pin terminal, they push the fraud risk on the customer. (Ross > Anderson at Cambridge has written at length about how this has screwed > innocent bank customers.) So the claim that it was due to poor comms infrastructure was just plain wrong, as I said. > In Canada, I think it was because of rampant tax fraud at restaurants > in Quebec. When they went to chip+pin, all of the restos had to > install tamper-resistant things on their cash registers that print > strange security hieroglyphics on the receipt. So the claim that it was due to poor comms infrastructure was just plain wrong, as I said.
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-01 16:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87mvzf4fa1.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #147840 |
John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> writes: > I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in > France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It > was not cheap and instant like it was here. another attempt at finding references to state of telco in europe ... turns up this discussion of orange ... which mentions they started buildout of local loops in the 70s ... doesn't mention price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A. however it does mention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A.#Acquisition_of_Orange_and_privatization In July 1991, Hutchinson Telecom, a UK subsidiary of the Hong Kong-based conglomerate Hutchison Whampoa acquires a controlling stake in Microtel Communications Ltd, who by then had won a license to develop a mobile network in United Kingdom.[5][6][7] Hutchison renamed Microtel as Orange Personal Communications Services Ltd, and on 28 April 1994 the Orange brand was launched in the UK mobile phone market ... snip ... as it happens in fall 1991 was in HK selling ha/cmp system to hutchinson for paging text messaging. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp this description is written as if there were no EMV deployments prior to middle of last decade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV and in particular "yes card" ... past posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#yescard however it does mentioning this 2010 exploit ... able to use a valid card w/o knowing the PIN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV#2010:_Hidden_hardware_disables_PIN_checking_on_stolen_card also from above Originally bank customers had to prove that they had not been negligent with their PIN before getting redress, but UK regulations in force from 1 November 2009 placed the onus firmly on the banks to prove that a customer has been negligent in any dispute, with the customer given 13 months to make a claim.[24] Murdoch said that "[the banks] should look back at previous transactions where the customer said their PIN had not been used and the bank record showed it has, and consider refunding these customers because it could be they are victim of this type of fraud." ... snip ... reversed public "burden of proof" and then reversed it again. also points to "Chip and PIN 'not fit for purpose', says Cambridge researcher" https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN_'not_fit_for_purpose',_says_Cambridge_researcher As previously mentioned the big difference between X9.59/AADS and chip&pin was chip&pin still attempts to preserve the existing card association operation with multiple layers of infrastructure. X9.59/AADS objective was stronger end-to-end security *AND* significantly decreasing the burden on the rest of the infrastructure ... even allowing everything (point-of-sale, browser, face-to-face, unattended, credit, debit, ach, etc) to run over the internet w/o encryption. past posts in thread http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#3 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#6 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#7 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#8 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#9 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#11 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#12 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#14 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-02 10:42 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cvjfnbF2uiU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147848 |
"Anne & Lynn Wheeler" <lynn@garlic.com> wrote in message news:87mvzf4fa1.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain... > John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> writes: >> I'm getting the impression you never tried to make a phone call in >> France in the 1970s or 1980s. It worked, sort of, usually. It >> was not cheap and instant like it was here. > > another attempt at finding references to state of telco in europe > ... turns up this discussion of orange ... which mentions they started > buildout of local loops in the 70s ... doesn't mention price > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A. > > however it does mention > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A.#Acquisition_of_Orange_and_privatization > > In July 1991, Hutchinson Telecom, a UK subsidiary of the Hong Kong-based > conglomerate Hutchison Whampoa acquires a controlling stake in Microtel > Communications Ltd, who by then had won a license to develop a mobile > network in United Kingdom.[5][6][7] Hutchison renamed Microtel as Orange > Personal Communications Services Ltd, and on 28 April 1994 the Orange > brand was launched in the UK mobile phone market None of that is relevant to why everyone but the US got chip and pin cards long before the US did.
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-03 12:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87381510f4.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #147848 |
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes: > As previously mentioned the big difference between X9.59/AADS and > chip&pin was chip&pin still attempts to preserve the existing card > association operation with multiple layers of infrastructure. X9.59/AADS > objective was stronger end-to-end security *AND* significantly > decreasing the burden on the rest of the infrastructure ... even > allowing everything (point-of-sale, browser, face-to-face, unattended, > credit, debit, ach, etc) to run over the internet w/o encryption. a little recent topic drift on aads (taken from a thread discussing F35) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads The problem has been raised about valid chips are being bought offshore that might have backdoors introduced. However, there is also problem where counterfeit chips (which could also have backdoors) may be substituted for valid chips ... similar to problems where counterfeit physical parts have been substituted for milspec parts (like bolts that don't meet milspec standards and will fail under stress). Probe finds 'flood' of fake military parts from China in U.S. equipment http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/22/probe-finds-flood-of-fake-military-parts-from-china-in-u-s-equipment/ note part of panel at ballroom standing room only http://csrc.nist.gov/nissc/1998/index.html I semi-facetiously say I was taking $500 milspec chip, aggressively cost reducing by 2-3 orders of magnitude while making it more secure. then TD to deputy director for the information assurance directorate asks me to be on assurance panel in the trusted computing track at IDF ... gone 404 but lives on at wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20011109072807/http://www.intel94.com/idf/spr2001/sessiondescription.asp?id=stp+s13 The person running TPM program is in the front row, so I comment that it is nice to see that over the past year or so, the TPM is starting to look more like my chip, he quips back that I don't have a committee of 200 people helping me with the design. I also make claim that it is as secure as anything the agency is doing while being 2-3 orders of magnitude less expensive (even when fab'ed at commercial agency certified "secure" fab), the Information Assurance Directorate TD quips back possibly except for radiation hardening. However, the agency has had a problem keeping their in-house fabs tracking technology. Let's Face It--It's the Cyber Era and We're Cyber Dumb; Got to get educated before we can defeat Internet threats https://medium.com/war-is-boring/30a00a8d29ad Internet threats are just a small part. Boyd used millions of dollars of supercomputer time for E/M and F16 design, F16 was already part way to being a drone with "fly-by-wire", F22 has 1.7M lines-of-code, F35 was originally suppose to be 5.7M lines-of-code but has exploded now to 24M lines-of-code. Software plays major role in gov. dataprocessing modernization failures and the spreading "Success of Failure" culture: http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04/the-success-of-failure/24107/ US military finds F-35 software is a buggy mess; Tests jettisoned to protect schedule http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/22/us_military_finds_f35_software_is_a_buggy_mess/ also some more 2007 "Success of Failure" .... Who broke the law, Snowden or the NSA? http://chicagodefender.com/2013/12/18/who-broke-the-law-snowden-or-the-nsa/ "When NSA employees Bill Binney, Tom Drake, Diane Roark and I submitted a formal complaint about mismanagement at the agency, the government's response on July 26, 2007, was to send the FBI to raid our homes, searching them for seven hours and seizing our computers, phones and other digital media. We are just now getting our property back after having successfully sued the government in December 2012." possibly somewhat related ... Office of Special Counsel Releases Report Confirming Misconduct by Then-Agency Head Scott Bloch http://www.pogo.org/blog/2013/12/office-of-special-counsel-releases-report.html note that in the gov. "success of failure" paradigm ... they are always claiming that the latest upteenth round for weapons, security, cyber, dataprocessing, etc ... will magically correct all past shortcomings. disclaimer: I don't have clearance ... but have periodically gotten called in, possibly because they've used a lot of my stuff over the years going back to my undergraduate days in the 60s (they would periodically brag that they knew where I was every day of my life back to birth). there was unclassified IC-ARDA (now IARPA) BAA early in the "success of failure" period (which we didn't realize until all the publicity much later last decade), we get a call asking us to respond before the BAA closed end-of-day ... apparently nobody else had responded ... BAA basically said that nothing they had would do the job. We responded before the end-of-day and then there were a couple meetings where we showed that we could do what was required ... and then nothing. Later we were told that the higher ups had told the BAA author that he actually hadn't proved (to their satisfaction) that what they have wouldn't do the job. As in other "success of failure" stories, there are lot of large for-profit companies and other vested interests interested in maintaining the status quo (conjecture that he was allowed to release the BAA in anticipation of no response, which would help shutdown his complaining). boyd posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html "success of failure" posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-04 08:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87615zgbys.fsf@lhwserver.localdomain> |
| In reply to | #147919 |
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes: > Let's Face It--It's the Cyber Era and We're Cyber Dumb; Got to get > educated before we can defeat Internet threats > https://medium.com/war-is-boring/30a00a8d29ad re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015f.html#20 Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally more in the cyberdumb theme, including OPM servers not only ones pillaged ... also classified military, from recent F-35 discussions US military finds F-35 software is a buggy mess; Tests jettisoned to protect schedule http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/22/us_military_finds_f35_software_is_a_buggy_mess/ so maybe F-35 is really purposeful bad design to get advisories to waste resources trying to copy Confirmation that China stole F35, F22 and B2 stealth bomber secrets as early as 2007 http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/confirmation-that-china-stole-f35-f22.html Chinese Hackers Score F-35, Black Hawk Chopper, and PATRIOT Missile Data http://www.dailytech.com/Chinese+Hackers+Score+F35+Black+Hawk+Chopper+and+PATRIOT+Missile+Data/article31638.htm Stolen F-35 Secrets Now Showing Up in China's Stealth Fighter; Design data on F-35 stolen in 2007 http://freebeacon.com/national-security/stolen-f-35-secrets-now-showing-up-in-chinas-stealth-fighter/ New fear: Worm that ransacked US military PCs was blueprint for spies' super-malware; Secret stealer spawned spooks' snoop stooge, it seems http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/12/cyber_espionage_daddy/ Stolen F-35 Secrets Showing Up In China's Stealth Fighter http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2014/03/stolen-f-35-secrets-showing-up-in.html Officials: Chinese Spying Helped Develop Stealth Jet http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/china-cyberspying-f-35-stealth-jet/2014/03/13/id/559402/ New Chinese stealth jet built with stolen F-35 component designs http://rt.com/news/chinese-jet-cyber-espionage-stolen-718/ Chinese Stealth Fighter Operating With Stolen U.S. Technology http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/13/chinese-stealth-fighter-operating-with-stolen-u-s-technology/ more gov. Cyber Dumb Government Software Project Failure http://defense.about.com/od/prodinnovate/a/Government-Software-Project-Failures.htm World's Biggest 'Agile' Software Project Close To Failure http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/25/139218/worlds-biggest-agile-software-project-close-to-failure The scariest software project horror stories of 2012 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9234581/The_scariest_software_project_horror_stories_of_2012 Billion-Dollar Flop: Air Force Stumbles on Software Plan http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/technology/air-force-stumbles-over-software-modernization-project.html?_r=0 Opinion: Does the Pentagon give contractors an incentive for slow R&D? http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_02_24_2014_p16-664173.xml NSA director calls for stronger strategy to deter cyberattacks http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-director-calls-for-stronger-deterrent-strategy-to-oppose-cyberattacks/2014/02/27/aabd3d92-9fd4-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html Army Unit to Intel Center: DCGS Doesn't Work http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/03/23/army-unit-to-intel-center-dcgs-doesnt-work/ The Pentagon Spent $2.7 Billion on an Intelligence System That Doesn't Work http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/03/pentagon-spent-27-billion-intelligence-system-doesnt-work/359319/ $2.7 Billion Later, the Army's Intelligence-Sharing Computer System Still Doesn't Work http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-07/27-billion-later-army%E2%80%99s-intelligence-sharing-computer-system-still-doesn%E2%80%99t-work Exclusive: Pentagon Withholds Internal Report About Flawed $2.7 Billion Intel Program http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/exclusive_pentagon_withholds_report_2.7_billion_intel_program International Engagement on CYBER 2014 http://lsgs.georgetown.edu/events/InternationalEngagementonCyber2014 Commander: U.S. Military Not Ready for Cyber Warfare; Gen. Alexander tells Senate threat of major cyber attacks is growing http://freebeacon.com/national-security/commander-u-s-military-not-ready-for-cyber-warfare/ -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-28 15:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mmp4sb02g1q@news4.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #147505 |
On 2015-06-27, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: > Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally > http://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-fraud-solution-coming-to-america---finally-192611312.html Here in Canada we've had chip-and-PIN for years; it seems so quaint to go to the States and watch the clock roll back when doing credit card transactions. I love the way that article tries to justify the U.S. dragging their heels on this, with their talk about Europe not having access to real-time data communication. On our trip to Scotland last summer, the same chip-and-PIN card we use at home worked for purchases and ATMs even in small villages. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-28 16:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <cvak8lFm85hU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147543 |
On 2015-06-28, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2015-06-27, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>
>> Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally
>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-fraud-solution-coming-to-america---finally-192611312.html
>
> Here in Canada we've had chip-and-PIN for years; it seems so quaint
> to go to the States and watch the clock roll back when doing credit
> card transactions.
Quite.
> I love the way that article tries to justify the
> U.S. dragging their heels on this, with their talk about Europe not
> having access to real-time data communication.
To quote from the article;
"The Europeans adopted chip-card technology because a lack of reliable
telecomm connectivity prompted them to store transactions and send them
in batches, often overnight for authorization the next day,"
This is, not to put too fine a point on it, unmitigated cack.
> On our trip to Scotland
> last summer, the same chip-and-PIN card we use at home worked for
> purchases and ATMs even in small villages.
Quite.
"Oh, gee, English credit cards work here" - actual quotation from a number
of American store clerks.
--
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 33rd day of Confusion in the YOLD 3181
I don't have an attitude problem.
If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.
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| From | Morten Reistad <first@last.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 08:22 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <5q476c-l79.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> |
| In reply to | #147548 |
In article <cvak8lFm85hU2@mid.individual.net>, Huge <usenet@huge.org.uk> wrote: >On 2015-06-28, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote: >> On 2015-06-27, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >> >>> Credit card fraud solution coming to America...finally >>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-fraud-solution-coming-to-america---finally-192611312.html >> >> Here in Canada we've had chip-and-PIN for years; it seems so quaint >> to go to the States and watch the clock roll back when doing credit >> card transactions. > >Quite. > >> I love the way that article tries to justify the >> U.S. dragging their heels on this, with their talk about Europe not >> having access to real-time data communication. > >To quote from the article; > >"The Europeans adopted chip-card technology because a lack of reliable >telecomm connectivity prompted them to store transactions and send them >in batches, often overnight for authorization the next day," Hogwash. I saw real-time, online validation in the mid 1970s here; in 1980 we were already ahead of the New York area in terms of the online versions of credit card verification. I used the credit card with online verification in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, France, Sweden and Italy during the early 1980s; and this was established technology back then. The author must have visited Europe sometime prior to 1975 to have that view. Of course, the validation is a two-phase commit; and the validation and the actual transactions are separate electronic transactions. Some CC POS devices still wait until the end of the day/clearance of the register/lunch break to send the actual payment transactions in a batch. This has to do with banking rates for these transations. >This is, not to put too fine a point on it, unmitigated cack. > >> On our trip to Scotland >> last summer, the same chip-and-PIN card we use at home worked for >> purchases and ATMs even in small villages. > >Quite. > >"Oh, gee, English credit cards work here" - actual quotation from a number >of American store clerks. -- mrr
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| From | "John Chance" <JCJC@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 06:56 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <cvb5d1FqshoU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147543 |
"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:IJ-dndYwPp7bzw3InZ2dnUU78XmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 28/06/2015 17:36, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> {snip}
>
>> During chip&pin deployment in the UK, I was contracted by a legal
>> representative of one such person in dispute with their financial
>> dispute. There was dispute about withdrawal at ATM machine ... the
>> person claimed he didn't do it. With the reverse in dispute, the person
>> had to prove they didn't do it ... say producing the ATM surveillance
>> video showing it was done by somebody else (the bank wasn't required to
>> produce the ATM surveilance video showing that they had done it).
>
> We need to prevent card copying
Not possible with chip and pin.
> and keep pins hidden from other people.
Don’t need a pin at all when the phone uses
a fingerprint sensor instead of a pin and the
fingerprint is much harder to steal.
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| From | jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 12:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <PM000519A6F22E6261@aca40a4c.ipt.aol.com> |
| In reply to | #147580 |
John Chance wrote:
>
>
> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:IJ-dndYwPp7bzw3InZ2dnUU78XmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> On 28/06/2015 17:36, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> {snip}
>>
>>> During chip&pin deployment in the UK, I was contracted by a legal
>>> representative of one such person in dispute with their financial
>>> dispute. There was dispute about withdrawal at ATM machine ... the
>>> person claimed he didn't do it. With the reverse in dispute, the person
>>> had to prove they didn't do it ... say producing the ATM surveillance
>>> video showing it was done by somebody else (the bank wasn't required to
>>> produce the ATM surveilance video showing that they had done it).
>>
>> We need to prevent card copying
>
> Not possible with chip and pin.
>
>> and keep pins hidden from other people.
>
> Don’t need a pin at all when the phone uses
> a fingerprint sensor instead of a pin and the
> fingerprint is much harder to steal.
>
How does the device adjust itself when the fingerprint
changes?
/BAH
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| From | Morten Reistad <first@last.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 16:17 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <bl086c-rdb.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> |
| In reply to | #147602 |
In article <PM000519A6F22E6261@aca40a4c.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>John Chance wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:IJ-dndYwPp7bzw3InZ2dnUU78XmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> On 28/06/2015 17:36, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>> {snip}
>>>
>>>> During chip&pin deployment in the UK, I was contracted by a legal
>>>> representative of one such person in dispute with their financial
>>>> dispute. There was dispute about withdrawal at ATM machine ... the
>>>> person claimed he didn't do it. With the reverse in dispute, the person
>>>> had to prove they didn't do it ... say producing the ATM surveillance
>>>> video showing it was done by somebody else (the bank wasn't required to
>>>> produce the ATM surveilance video showing that they had done it).
>>>
>>> We need to prevent card copying
>>
>> Not possible with chip and pin.
>>
>>> and keep pins hidden from other people.
>>
>> Don’t need a pin at all when the phone uses
>> a fingerprint sensor instead of a pin and the
>> fingerprint is much harder to steal.
>>
>How does the device adjust itself when the fingerprint
>changes?
And a fingerprint is easy to steal. You leave around a
thousand of them on reclaimable surfaces every day.
Biometrics are *completely*useless* as an identification
vehicle. They are all sufficiently fuzzy that the fuzzyness
will overwhelm the selection of any one subject when the
total population goes up. More samples do not help.
However, the can be excellent for *verification*, once
you claim to be you (via some other channel, ie. an
account name, a pin, a ppn etc.) you can call up a template
where it really helps to have more samples.
But telling this to Rod is a waste of time.
But the rest of you may not be aware of this distinction.
-- mrr
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| From | JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 10:22 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <3io2pa1l30dg0natm1rhsj88kau861c981@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #147627 |
On Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:17:47 +0200, Morten Reistad <first@last.name>
wrote:
>In article <PM000519A6F22E6261@aca40a4c.ipt.aol.com>,
>jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>John Chance wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:IJ-dndYwPp7bzw3InZ2dnUU78XmdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> On 28/06/2015 17:36, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> {snip}
>>>>
>>>>> During chip&pin deployment in the UK, I was contracted by a legal
>>>>> representative of one such person in dispute with their financial
>>>>> dispute. There was dispute about withdrawal at ATM machine ... the
>>>>> person claimed he didn't do it. With the reverse in dispute, the person
>>>>> had to prove they didn't do it ... say producing the ATM surveillance
>>>>> video showing it was done by somebody else (the bank wasn't required to
>>>>> produce the ATM surveilance video showing that they had done it).
>>>>
>>>> We need to prevent card copying
>>>
>>> Not possible with chip and pin.
>>>
>>>> and keep pins hidden from other people.
>>>
>>> Don’t need a pin at all when the phone uses
>>> a fingerprint sensor instead of a pin and the
>>> fingerprint is much harder to steal.
>>>
>>How does the device adjust itself when the fingerprint
>>changes?
>
>And a fingerprint is easy to steal. You leave around a
>thousand of them on reclaimable surfaces every day.
>
>Biometrics are *completely*useless* as an identification
>vehicle. They are all sufficiently fuzzy that the fuzzyness
>will overwhelm the selection of any one subject when the
>total population goes up. More samples do not help.
>
>However, the can be excellent for *verification*, once
>you claim to be you (via some other channel, ie. an
>account name, a pin, a ppn etc.) you can call up a template
>where it really helps to have more samples.
>
>But telling this to Rod is a waste of time.
>
>But the rest of you may not be aware of this distinction.
Someone told me some years ago that they were going to use biometrics
for security, to make sure only certain people got into some areas. I
then asked them, 'what if they have retina surgery ? I have, and one
of my retinas changes shape almost daily'. They had no answer and sort
of wandered away mumbling to themselves.
--
JimP.
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| From | "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-06-29 10:30 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <cvd6ksFbsurU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #147637 |
"JimP" wrote: > Someone told me some years ago that they were going to use biometrics > for security, to make sure only certain people got into some areas. I > then asked them, 'what if they have retina surgery ? I have, and one > of my retinas changes shape almost daily'. They had no answer and sort > of wandered away mumbling to themselves. Yeah, they're better off just letting anyone just wander in.
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