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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?

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  Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-25 19:01 +0100
    Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-25 16:52 -0400
      Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-25 22:37 +0100
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-25 18:01 -0400
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> - 2020-07-25 23:08 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 00:31 +0100
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-25 19:41 -0400
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:25 +0100
                  Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 10:40 -0400
                    Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:43 +0100
                      Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 11:38 -0400
                        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> - 2020-07-26 17:32 +0100
                          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 16:13 -0400
                            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 22:18 +0100
                              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 19:21 -0400
                                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-10 21:03 +0100
                        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 18:06 +0100
                          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 16:14 -0400
                            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 22:17 +0100
                              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-26 19:26 -0400
                                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-11 18:28 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2020-07-25 19:32 -0400
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:20 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-07-27 11:32 +0200
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-27 08:59 -0500
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-07-27 22:59 +0200
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-12 19:41 +0100
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Avila Kap <kap0utox01@jamaica.com> - 2020-07-25 16:52 -0700
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:38 +0100
    Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-25 18:33 -0400
      Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-25 23:47 +0100
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> - 2020-07-26 00:17 +0100
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 00:30 +0100
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-07-25 16:57 -0700
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:35 +0100
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-07-26 10:22 -0700
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 19:44 +0100
                  Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2020-07-26 11:46 -0700
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-07-26 10:16 +0000
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:35 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-07-27 07:05 +0000
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-27 05:14 -0400
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2020-07-27 18:12 +0000
                  Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-11 23:20 +0100
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-11 23:18 +0100
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-11 23:21 +0100
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-07-26 13:27 +0200
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:34 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-07-26 20:50 +0200
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-10 18:57 +0100
      Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-25 19:43 -0500
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-25 21:45 -0400
          Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 15:29 +0100
            Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-26 13:46 -0400
              Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-08-08 20:03 +0100
                Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-08-08 18:12 -0400
        Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "wasbit" <wasbitREMOVE@hotmail.com> - 2020-07-26 10:03 +0100
    Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> - 2020-07-26 17:01 +0100
      Re: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? "Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> - 2020-07-26 18:05 +0100

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#119490

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:26:59 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
> (in article <op.0odr2pn5wdg98l@glass>):
>
>> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:14:06 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>>
>> > On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > (in article <op.0odggwqpwdg98l@glass>):
>> >
>> > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:38:33 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > (in article <op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass>):
>> > > >
>> > > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > > > (in article <op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass>):
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > > > > > (in article <op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass>):
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, David_B<DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
>> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > > > > > > > > (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > normally,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > then
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cooling,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > no, you won’t.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > type
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fan on the side.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > encountered
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > then,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > was
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -5%
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > (that’s
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65%
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > airflow,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > depending
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > same
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > placed
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > relative
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > location
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > CPU
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > relative to sides of computer case, location of other items
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > including
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > hard
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > case
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.)
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > However,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > airflow
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > airflow
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > heat
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > another
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > heat
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > heat
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65%
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > two
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > fans;
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > get
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > easier
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > dating
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > use a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > newer
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > IBM
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Power
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > devices
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > near
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > G5-
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > or
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Windtunnel
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > shipped
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Windtunnel
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mk
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2...)
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5s,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > they’re much better behaved, but still...
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > which
>> > > > > > > > > > > > won't
>> > > > > > > > > > > > blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It
>> > > > > > > > > > > > will
>> > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > > > twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > first
>> > > > > > > > > > > > heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all
>> > > > > > > > > > > > that.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling.
>> > > > > > > > > > > Instead
>> > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > > > kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed
>> > > > > > > > > > > dual
>> > > > > > > > > > > fan
>> > > > > > > > > > > units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar
>> > > > > > > > > > > single-fan
>> > > > > > > > > > > designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling
>> > > > > > > > > > > either.
>> > > > > > > > > > > Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re
>> > > > > > > > > > > serious
>> > > > > > > > > > > about cooling, use liquid cooling.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise.
>> > > > > > > > > > > Especially
>> > > > > > > > > > > if
>> > > > > > > > > > > you use small-diameter fans.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan?
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > You are way out of your league here.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > he’s an idiot.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just
>> > > > > > > down
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > road from me (well 500 miles).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely
>> > > > > > didn’t
>> > > > > > know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was
>> > > > > > a
>> > > > > > valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is
>> > > > > hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines.
>> > > >
>> > > > Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences.
>> > > > There
>> > > > are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies,
>> > > > 802.1X,
>> > > > even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11
>> > > > wireless
>> > > > another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s
>> > > > sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his
>> > > > Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the
>> > > > network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy
>> > > > was
>> > > > pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was
>> > > > provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this
>> > > > the
>> > > > only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news
>> > > > clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and
>> > > > find
>> > > > any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding
>> > > > ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know
>> > > > if
>> > > > your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a
>> > > > prolonged period. He’s an idiot.
>> > >
>> > > And so are you for taking so much time proving he's wrong.
>> >
>> > nope.
>> > > Get a hobby.
>> >
>> > this is a hobby.
>>
>> Do I have to spell it out for you?
>
> you can try.
>> Get a useful or interesting hobby
>
> this is a useful, to mer, and amusing, to me, hobby. Part of its use and part
> of its amusement comes from the reactions of troll-boy’s fan club. I find
> _that_ to be worth all the trouble and more.
>> instead
>> of being a sad lonely stalker.
>
> Som, I don’t have to stalk hium, I just have to be reading any of the
> newsgroups where he makes a spectacle of himself. And then to just hit save
> when I see a particularly idiotic post. and not just one of troll-boy’s
> posts.
>
> Just so you know, I just hit save. You’re funny, boyo.

Get a life.

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#118306

On 25 Jul 2020, David_B wrote
(in article <e32TG.231268$oCi.102633@fx02.ams1>):

> On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote:
> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
> >
> > > On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
> > > > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
> > > >
> > > > > Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then
> > > > > the
> > > > > second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling,
> > > >
> > > > no, you won’t.
> > > >
> > > > > if it
> > > > > conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with
> > > > > the
> > > > > fan on the side.
> > > >
> > > > there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered
> > > > this
> > > > idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it
> > > > was
> > > > just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5%
> > > > (that’s
> > > > _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow,
> > > > depending
> > > > on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same
> > > > direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed
> > > > relative
> > > > to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU
> > > > relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard
> > > > drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case
> > > > especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However,
> > > > airflow
> > > > and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the
> > > > airflow
> > > > does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat
> > > > exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat
> > > > exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat
> > > > exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two
> > > > fans;
> > > > cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get
> > > > that
> > > > +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a
> > > > _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier
> > > > to
> > > > do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from
> > > > 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer
> > > > CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power
> > > > CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to
> > > > convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5-
> > > > or
> > > > a
> > > > G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel
> > > > because
> > > > of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped
> > > > with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk
> > > > 2...)
> > > > IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and
> > > > they’re much better behaved, but still...
> > >
> > > Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't
> > > blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be
> > > twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first
> > > heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that.
> >
> > You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of
> > kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan
> > units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan
> > designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either.
> > Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious
> > about cooling, use liquid cooling.
> >
> > What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if
> > you use small-diameter fans.
>
> Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan?

For one thing, troll-boy, I have a masters. For another, I have 40 years 
experience. For a thirds, you’re a drunken idiot.

>
>
> Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P

damn, but you’re stupid. (looks at heavily moded beige G3, at even more 
heavily moded Windtunnel... and at the various Windows and Linux systems...)

>
>
> You are way out of your league here.

nope.

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#118330

On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
> (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>>
>> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>> >
>> > > Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then
>> > > the
>> > > second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling,
>> >
>> > no, you won’t.
>> >
>> > > if it
>> > > conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the
>> > > fan on the side.
>> >
>> > there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered
>> > this
>> > idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it
>> > was
>> > just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5%
>> > (that’s
>> > _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow,
>> > depending
>> > on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same
>> > direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative
>> > to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU
>> > relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard
>> > drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case
>> > especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow
>> > and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow
>> > does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat
>> > exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat
>> > exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat
>> > exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans;
>> > cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that
>> > +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a
>> > _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier
>> > to
>> > do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from
>> > 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer
>> > CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power
>> > CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to
>> > convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or
>> > a
>> > G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel
>> > because
>> > of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped
>> > with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...)
>> > IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and
>> > they’re much better behaved, but still...
>>
>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't
>> blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be
>> twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first
>> heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that.
>
> You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of
> kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan
> units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan
> designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either.
> Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious
> about cooling, use liquid cooling.
>
> What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if
> you use small-diameter fans.

Dual fan is pointless.  Each fan is designed to push x amount of air, adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.  You only get better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.  Series is stupid.

Anyway I fixed it, by changing the fan, I'd forgotten that some fans are really crap - they can be anything from 1100rpm to 4000rpm.  I happened to have a few 3000rpm fans sitting about, so I replaced what looks like about 1100rpm with 3000rpm, and lost 20C of temperature.  What's odd is I used to have one CPU at 65C and one at 75C (with identical coolers), and now the 75C has dropped to 55C.  I guess the physical position meant cooler air for one of them.

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#118401

On 26/07/2020 16.20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>> (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>>
>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>> > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>>> >

...

>>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans,
>>> which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable
>>> difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack
>>> of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will
>>> conduct well, being metal and all that.
>>
>> You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of
>> kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed
>> dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of
>> similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get
>> double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for
>> yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid
>> cooling.
>>
>> What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. 
>> Especially if you use small-diameter fans.
> 
> Dual fan is pointless.  Each fan is designed to push x amount of air, 
> adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.  You only get 
> better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.  Series is stupid.

Not really. Depends.

<https://www.mouser.es/pdfDocs/theparallelandseriesoperation.pdf>


There is at least one helicopter with "serial" blades (for another reason).


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#118407

On 2020-07-27 4:32 a.m., Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
> On 26/07/2020 16.20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>> (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>>> > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>>>> >
> 
> ...
> 
>>>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans,
>>>> which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable
>>>> difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack
>>>> of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will
>>>> conduct well, being metal and all that.
>>>
>>> You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of
>>> kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed
>>> dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of
>>> similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get
>>> double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for
>>> yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid
>>> cooling.
>>>
>>> What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. 
>>> Especially if you use small-diameter fans.
>>
>> Dual fan is pointless.  Each fan is designed to push x amount of air, 
>> adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.  You only get 
>> better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.  Series is stupid.
> 
> Not really. Depends.
> 
> <https://www.mouser.es/pdfDocs/theparallelandseriesoperation.pdf>
> 
> 
> There is at least one helicopter with "serial" blades (for another reason).
> 
> 

And various planes, for different reasons, see explantion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra-rotating_propellers

Rene

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#118418

On 27/07/2020 15.59, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2020-07-27 4:32 a.m., Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> On 26/07/2020 16.20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>>> (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>>>> > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>>>>> >
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans,
>>>>> which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable
>>>>> difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack
>>>>> of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will
>>>>> conduct well, being metal and all that.
>>>>
>>>> You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. 
>>>> Instead of
>>>> kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed
>>>> dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of
>>>> similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get
>>>> double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for
>>>> yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid
>>>> cooling.
>>>>
>>>> What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. 
>>>> Especially if you use small-diameter fans.
>>>
>>> Dual fan is pointless.  Each fan is designed to push x amount of air, 
>>> adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.  You only 
>>> get better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.  Series is 
>>> stupid.
>>
>> Not really. Depends.
>>
>> <https://www.mouser.es/pdfDocs/theparallelandseriesoperation.pdf>
>>
>>
>> There is at least one helicopter with "serial" blades (for another 
>> reason).
>>
>>
> 
> And various planes, for different reasons, see explantion.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra-rotating_propellers

True, I forgot them.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#119616

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:32:44 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>
> On 26/07/2020 16.20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>> (in article <op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass>):
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
>>>> > (in article <op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass>):
>>>> >
>
> ...
>
>>>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans,
>>>> which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable
>>>> difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack
>>>> of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will
>>>> conduct well, being metal and all that.
>>>
>>> You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of
>>> kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed
>>> dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of
>>> similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get
>>> double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for
>>> yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid
>>> cooling.
>>>
>>> What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise.
>>> Especially if you use small-diameter fans.
>>
>> Dual fan is pointless.  Each fan is designed to push x amount of air,
>> adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.  You only get
>> better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.  Series is stupid.
>
> Not really. Depends.
>
> <https://www.mouser.es/pdfDocs/theparallelandseriesoperation.pdf>

In a PC, the pressure is virtually zero.  So you're not helping by putting two in series.

> There is at least one helicopter with "serial" blades (for another reason).
>

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#118310

On 7/25/2020 2:37 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which 
> won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference.  It 
> will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through 
> the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and 
> all that.

What you know about heat sinks one could stuff in a thimble, asshole!

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#118336

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:52:50 +0100, Avila Kap <kap0utox01@jamaica.com> wrote:

> On 7/25/2020 2:37 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which
>> won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference.  It
>> will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through
>> the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and
>> all that.
>
> What you know about heat sinks one could stuff in a thimble, asshole!

What you know about spelling one could stuff in a thimble, you orifice of a donkey.

Ass: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Perry-miniature-donkey-in-Palo-Alto-CA-2016.jpg/1200px-Perry-miniature-donkey-in-Palo-Alto-CA-2016.jpg

Arse: https://youtu.be/sx6gkKRUUZo

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#118300

Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, 
> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the 
> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to 
> the type with the fan on the side.

Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.

Look at the Zalman completely-passive cooling
computer case, if you want to see how to do it.
It moves heat from one place to another with
heatpipes. The exterior of the case is the
final destination.

https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af

Only with heatpipes, can you move heat from
the origin, to the second heatsink, and expect
to get improved performance.

That's why heatpipes are used, between baseplate
and top-of-fins, so that an excessively-long fin
does some work for you.

It's also why a 50mm tall 40mm square heatsink,
is no more effective than a 25mm tall 40mm square heatsink.
Those are used on chipsets. The upper portion of the
taller unit, has insufficient thermal conduction
for the top of the fins to remove heat. It means
making fins longer and longer (without heatpipes),
is asymptotic. At some point, a longer fin adds
nothing to the solution.

Once you lace the parts together with heatpipes,
then we'll talk. There's a limit to how many
heatpipes can be fitted, and some thought has to be
put into where the heatpipe is moving the heat.

You place the heatpipe at the source, as only if
the heatpipe is in intimate contact, does its 1000x
better performance, work. Just ramming a pipe into
a block with 3 inches of aluminum between the
baseplate and the pipe, that would be useless too.
As the 3 inches of aluminum is a huge thermal
resistance, and the zero resistance of the heatpipe
on top cannot then help. The heatpipes always start
in the baseplate, touching the CPU.

This is why we buy a larger heatsink, like a Noctua.
Instead of impishly welding stuff together, the
heatpipes on the properly-designed unit, have been
selected for the perfect location to get the
best effect. While the unit may be designed with
two fans, it works quite well with only the
central fan fitted.

Heatpipes have non-linear behavior. If you pump too
much heat into them, the liquid-vapor phase transfer
stops because all the materials remain in the vapor
phase. The manufacturer will usually suggest a max
power as a practical limit (before the pipes saturate
and the degree-of-cooling ends up actually reduced).
If you put six pipes in parallel, as soon as one
pipe saturates, the other five carry the load and
then they drop in quick succession.

    Paul

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#118301

On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>> the type with the fan on the side.
>
> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.

It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.

> Look at the Zalman completely-passive cooling
> computer case, if you want to see how to do it.
> It moves heat from one place to another with
> heatpipes. The exterior of the case is the
> final destination.
>
> https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af

No no and no.  I once bought a "silent power supply" that threw it's heat out the back with a sticky out heatsink.  It went bang after a few months.

> Only with heatpipes, can you move heat from
> the origin, to the second heatsink, and expect
> to get improved performance.

And both the heatsinks have heatpipes running through them.

> That's why heatpipes are used, between baseplate
> and top-of-fins, so that an excessively-long fin
> does some work for you.
>
> It's also why a 50mm tall 40mm square heatsink,
> is no more effective than a 25mm tall 40mm square heatsink.
> Those are used on chipsets. The upper portion of the
> taller unit, has insufficient thermal conduction
> for the top of the fins to remove heat. It means
> making fins longer and longer (without heatpipes),
> is asymptotic. At some point, a longer fin adds
> nothing to the solution.

I can't believe that, metal is a very good conductor.  The top of tall ones can still be hot to touch.

> Once you lace the parts together with heatpipes,
> then we'll talk. There's a limit to how many
> heatpipes can be fitted, and some thought has to be
> put into where the heatpipe is moving the heat.

I would have 4 heatpipes running through the bottom half, and 4 through the top half.  There would only be a short interface of normal metal to join the two.

> You place the heatpipe at the source, as only if
> the heatpipe is in intimate contact, does its 1000x
> better performance, work. Just ramming a pipe into
> a block with 3 inches of aluminum between the
> baseplate and the pipe, that would be useless too.
> As the 3 inches of aluminum is a huge thermal
> resistance, and the zero resistance of the heatpipe
> on top cannot then help. The heatpipes always start
> in the baseplate, touching the CPU.

Doesn't have to.  The top of the existing heatsink is too hot to touch.  So the heatpipes on the new heatsink will take heat away from there.

> This is why we buy a larger heatsink, like a Noctua.
> Instead of impishly welding stuff together, the
> heatpipes on the properly-designed unit, have been
> selected for the perfect location to get the
> best effect. While the unit may be designed with
> two fans, it works quite well with only the
> central fan fitted.
>
> Heatpipes have non-linear behavior. If you pump too
> much heat into them, the liquid-vapor phase transfer
> stops because all the materials remain in the vapor
> phase. The manufacturer will usually suggest a max
> power as a practical limit (before the pipes saturate
> and the degree-of-cooling ends up actually reduced).
> If you put six pipes in parallel, as soon as one
> pipe saturates, the other five carry the load and
> then they drop in quick succession.

What temperature should the CPU be for optimal heatpipe cooling?

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#118302

On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>>
>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
> 
> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.

<SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>

In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most 
intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.

Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D

-- 
Surrogate dad!
Send photos please!

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#118304

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:17:04 +0100, David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:

> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>>>
>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>
>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>
> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
>
> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most
> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
>
> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D

He told me to use what I was already using.

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#118311

On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote:
> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>>>
>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>
>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
> 
> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
> 
> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most 
> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
> 
> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D
> 

I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the 
cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and 
knowledgeable.

-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

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#118335

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote:
>> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>>>>
>>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>>
>>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>>
>> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
>>
>> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most
>> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
>>
>> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D
>>
>
> I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the
> cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and
> knowledgeable.

I said close to twice the cooling.

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#118346

On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote:
>>> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted
>>>>>> normally, then the second welded on top of it.
>>>>>> Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts
>>>>>> through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type
>>>>>> with the fan on the side.
>>>>>
>>>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>>>
>>>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>>>
>>> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
>>>
>>> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most
>>> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
>>>
>>> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D
>>>
>>
>> I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the
>> cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and
>> knowledgeable.
> 
> I said close to twice the cooling.

We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the 
cooling", but my first thought was you would not likely get close... BUT 
the main point here is I would not have been NEARLY as detailed or 
knowledgeable as what we saw in the other reply. Nowhere close. I would 
not have really even been able to defend my view -- just was based on my 
gut feeling and very basic understanding, hence why I did not post it.

Glad someone else with far more knowledge jumped in.

-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

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#118349

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:22:11 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

>
> On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote:
>>>> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted
>>>>>>> normally, then the second welded on top of it.
>>>>>>> Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts
>>>>>>> through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type
>>>>>>> with the fan on the side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>>>>
>>>> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most
>>>> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
>>>>
>>>> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D
>>>>
>>>
>>> I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the
>>> cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and
>>> knowledgeable.
>>
>> I said close to twice the cooling.
>
> We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the
> cooling",

There's nothing to quibble about.  It means "you would have twice, except for the reasons listed thus...."

For example, "Theoretically, John can run twice as fast as Chris, but since he dozes off after 10 minutes, he's ineffective in a race."

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#118350

On 7/26/20 11:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:22:11 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote:
>>>>> On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted
>>>>>>>> normally, then the second welded on top of it.
>>>>>>>> Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts
>>>>>>>> through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type
>>>>>>>> with the fan on the side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>>>>>
>>>>> <SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most
>>>>> intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the
>>>> cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and
>>>> knowledgeable.
>>>
>>> I said close to twice the cooling.
>>
>> We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the
>> cooling",
> 
> There's nothing to quibble about.  It means "you would have twice, 
> except for the reasons listed thus...."
> 
> For example, "Theoretically, John can run twice as fast as Chris, but 
> since he dozes off after 10 minutes, he's ineffective in a race."

OK. But still my main point was I am happy someone else came in with 
much better info than I had to offer. :)

-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

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#118328

Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>> 
>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
> 
> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
> 
>> Look at the Zalman completely-passive cooling
>> computer case, if you want to see how to do it.
>> It moves heat from one place to another with
>> heatpipes. The exterior of the case is the
>> final destination.
>> 
>> https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af
> 
> No no and no.  I once bought a "silent power supply" that threw it's heat
> out the back with a sticky out heatsink.  It went bang after a few months.
> 
>> Only with heatpipes, can you move heat from
>> the origin, to the second heatsink, and expect
>> to get improved performance.
> 
> And both the heatsinks have heatpipes running through them.
> 
>> That's why heatpipes are used, between baseplate
>> and top-of-fins, so that an excessively-long fin
>> does some work for you.
>> 
>> It's also why a 50mm tall 40mm square heatsink,
>> is no more effective than a 25mm tall 40mm square heatsink.
>> Those are used on chipsets. The upper portion of the
>> taller unit, has insufficient thermal conduction
>> for the top of the fins to remove heat. It means
>> making fins longer and longer (without heatpipes),
>> is asymptotic. At some point, a longer fin adds
>> nothing to the solution.
> 
> I can't believe that, metal is a very good conductor.  

But none is superconducting so there'll always be efficiency losses over
distance. Not all metals are the same which is why sinks are a mix of
copper and aluminium and not made of steel. Any joins also reduce
efficiency. It all adds up to a bad idea. 

> The top of tall ones can still be hot to touch.
> 
>> Once you lace the parts together with heatpipes,
>> then we'll talk. There's a limit to how many
>> heatpipes can be fitted, and some thought has to be
>> put into where the heatpipe is moving the heat.
> 
> I would have 4 heatpipes running through the bottom half, and 4 through
> the top half.  There would only be a short interface of normal metal to join the two.
> 
>> You place the heatpipe at the source, as only if
>> the heatpipe is in intimate contact, does its 1000x
>> better performance, work. Just ramming a pipe into
>> a block with 3 inches of aluminum between the
>> baseplate and the pipe, that would be useless too.
>> As the 3 inches of aluminum is a huge thermal
>> resistance, and the zero resistance of the heatpipe
>> on top cannot then help. The heatpipes always start
>> in the baseplate, touching the CPU.
> 
> Doesn't have to.  The top of the existing heatsink is too hot to touch. 
> So the heatpipes on the new heatsink will take heat away from there.

Compare it to the temperature of the CPU. It's probably already lost 30-40
°C. Another sink would lose that again. 

Anyway, if you don't believe any of this. Why not just do it and let us
know how you get on?

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#118334

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:16:11 +0100, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally,
>>>> then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the
>>>> cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to
>>>> the type with the fan on the side.
>>>
>>> Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes.
>>
>> It does.  Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes.
>>
>>> Look at the Zalman completely-passive cooling
>>> computer case, if you want to see how to do it.
>>> It moves heat from one place to another with
>>> heatpipes. The exterior of the case is the
>>> final destination.
>>>
>>> https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af
>>
>> No no and no.  I once bought a "silent power supply" that threw it's heat
>> out the back with a sticky out heatsink.  It went bang after a few months.
>>
>>> Only with heatpipes, can you move heat from
>>> the origin, to the second heatsink, and expect
>>> to get improved performance.
>>
>> And both the heatsinks have heatpipes running through them.
>>
>>> That's why heatpipes are used, between baseplate
>>> and top-of-fins, so that an excessively-long fin
>>> does some work for you.
>>>
>>> It's also why a 50mm tall 40mm square heatsink,
>>> is no more effective than a 25mm tall 40mm square heatsink.
>>> Those are used on chipsets. The upper portion of the
>>> taller unit, has insufficient thermal conduction
>>> for the top of the fins to remove heat. It means
>>> making fins longer and longer (without heatpipes),
>>> is asymptotic. At some point, a longer fin adds
>>> nothing to the solution.
>>
>> I can't believe that, metal is a very good conductor.
>
> But none is superconducting so there'll always be efficiency losses over
> distance. Not all metals are the same which is why sinks are a mix of
> copper and aluminium and not made of steel. Any joins also reduce
> efficiency. It all adds up to a bad idea.

It was a very short distance from the heatpipes of the bottom one to the heatpipes of the top one.

>> The top of tall ones can still be hot to touch.
>>
>>> Once you lace the parts together with heatpipes,
>>> then we'll talk. There's a limit to how many
>>> heatpipes can be fitted, and some thought has to be
>>> put into where the heatpipe is moving the heat.
>>
>> I would have 4 heatpipes running through the bottom half, and 4 through
>> the top half.  There would only be a short interface of normal metal to join the two.
>>
>>> You place the heatpipe at the source, as only if
>>> the heatpipe is in intimate contact, does its 1000x
>>> better performance, work. Just ramming a pipe into
>>> a block with 3 inches of aluminum between the
>>> baseplate and the pipe, that would be useless too.
>>> As the 3 inches of aluminum is a huge thermal
>>> resistance, and the zero resistance of the heatpipe
>>> on top cannot then help. The heatpipes always start
>>> in the baseplate, touching the CPU.
>>
>> Doesn't have to.  The top of the existing heatsink is too hot to touch.
>> So the heatpipes on the new heatsink will take heat away from there.
>
> Compare it to the temperature of the CPU. It's probably already lost 30-40
> °C. Another sink would lose that again.

I touched the block at the bottom where the heatpipes come from and the temperature was very similar.

Anyway I fixed it, by changing the fan, I'd forgotten that some fans are really crap - they can be anything from 1100rpm to 4000rpm.  I happened to have a few 3000rpm fans sitting about, so I replaced what looks like about 1100rpm with 3000rpm, and lost 20C of temperature (I don't care about the noise, it's in the garage and operated remotely).  What's odd is I used to have one CPU at 65C and one at 75C (with identical coolers), and now the 75C has dropped to 55C.  I guess the physical position meant cooler air for one of them.

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